Multimedia Toolkit 2/Multimedia Toolkit 2.iso/imagine/text/archive.02

Text File | 1993-03-12 | 162.0 KB | 3,821 lines

IMAGINE archive: collected off of [e-mail]

ARCHIVE II
Feb 27 '91 - Mar 10 '91

If you have questions or problems with this file, email Marvin Landis
at [e-mail]

Many thanks to Doug Dyer ([e-mail]) for the previous
versions of this archive

note: each message seperated by a '##'

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Subject: Coordinates?
Date:    Wed, 27 Feb 91 12:41 EST
From: "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]>

     Okay, now I've got this nifty wireframe of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701A.
Man, this'll work great in the game I'm designing!  Except that storing all
the views will take a lot of disk space.  I've got it!  I'll just store the
coordinates and do transformations and hidden line removal to get ANY angle
I want!  Great, now all I need are the coordinates....

     First and foremost.... how can one get the coordinates out of Imagine
for the points without going to each one and writing down the coordinates?

     Second, does anybody know how to do coordinate transformations and hidden
line removal?  :-)

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
| -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
| -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
| --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
| Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
\---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/

##

Subject: Re:  Coordinates?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 13:16:42 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

Doug Bischoff writes...

>First and foremost.... how can one get the coordinates out of Imagine
>for the points without going to each one and writing down the coordinates?


I do NOT know if this will work, but it may be worth a shot.  Maybe I can try
this myself and let you know.  I just got the TS 3.0 Interchange module
last week (I had 2.0 but needed 3.0 to get them into Imagine).  There is
an additional module called the Statistics Converter.  According to the manual,
it

Makes a text file of all the details of a 3D object, including:
    Precise point locations
    Edges
    Face point locations
    Object sizes
    Object names
    Textures
    Hierarchy details

You can examine face colors in raw RGB values, English color names, and
VideoScape 2.0 color numbers.

Well, the main problem is that it is for TS objects.  You can load TS 3.0
objects into Imagine, BUT I do not think that you can load Imagine objects
into TS (DON'T quote me on this.  Anyone know differently???).  If you
can do the latter, then this tool would do what you want and more.

Hope this helps.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re:  Coordinates?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 10:51:48 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 27,  1:16pm, "Scott Sutherland" wrote:
} Subject: Re:  Coordinates?
    [stuff deleted from message]
}
} Well, the main problem is that it is for TS objects.  You can load TS 3.0
} objects into Imagine, BUT I do not think that you can load Imagine objects
} into TS (DON'T quote me on this.  Anyone know differently???).  If you
} can do the latter, then this tool would do what you want and more.

In answer to the question, can you load Imagine objects into TS...yes.  I
created a 30 frame anim and used the f/x "explode" on an object.  Then I
went back and did a snapshot of the object for each frame (note: snapshot
saves the object as it appears in a particular frame).  I then loaded this
object into TS.

Now I didn't have to do all that to prove that I could load Imagine objects
into TS, but it proved that you could use Imagine's neat-o effects to
create objects for both Imagine and TS.

Yes, Scott, you can load Imagine objects into TS.

}
}
} Scott Sutherland
} [e-mail]
}
}-- End of excerpt from "Scott Sutherland"

--ed chadez

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Edward Chadez/System Support Specialist * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Coordinates
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 12:23:57 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

The commercial package mentioned is InterChange by Syndesis.  It
has a TS module that will Point Reduce, Scale, get information(what
you want), etc...

TTDDD sounds interesting Glenn, I will have to give it a look-see.


mark

##

Subject: Coordinates?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 11:18:33 PST
From: [e-mail] (Glenn M. Lewis ~)

>>>>> On Wed, 27 Feb 91 12:41 EST, "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]> said:

Doug>      First and foremost.... how can one get the coordinates out of
Doug> Imagine for the points without going to each one and writing down
Doug> the coordinates?

    Piece of cake.  Get TTDDD.zoo from ab20.larc.nasa.gov (I think
it is in the incoming/amiga directory).

Type: "ReadTDDD Enterprise.object > Enterprise.ttddd"

    Now take a look at "Enterprise.ttddd", and it's got all the
information you need, I believe.  Scott mentions some commercial package
that does the same thing.  TTDDD, like Scott's, works on Turbo Silver
objects, but it can read Imagine objects, and will simply skip the IFF
"chunks" that it doesn't understand (and will tell you what ones they
are).  Whenever I get the Imagine IFF format specification, I plan on
upgrading the TTDDD package.

Disclaimer:  TTDDD is ShareWare, written by myself.

                            -- Glenn Lewis

Doug> /---------------------------------------------------------------------\
Doug> | -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
Doug> | -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
Doug> | -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
Doug> | --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
Doug> | Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
Doug> \---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/


[e-mail] | These are my own opinions... not Intel's

##

Subject: Rolling objects, animated brush maps
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 19:33:26 EST
From: [e-mail]

I've been working on an animation that seems to be coming out
very nicely- there's a couple of techniques dealing with brushes
that people might find very useful.

I created a still first. It started as a "mirrored balls on a checkerboard"
setup, with the centerpiece being a big, black, glossy sphere with
a picture of me "trapped" inside the sphere. Later I turned it into
an animation with the camera moving about so that you could see the
different sides. It looked cool- the real goal was to see how well
a "traditional" mirror & glass sphere populated plain would look.

It turned out so well that I changed the animation to a still camera
and having the ball roll around the scene, in front of mirror-balls
and in back of glass balls to see the neat effects. [Remember the
long transparency essay I wrote? I was tweaking the crystal spheres
for this anim.] Making the ball roll was a trick. How do you get
something to roll (at the right speed!) while following a path? Getting
it to spin (like a plane doing a barrel roll) is easy- you align to
path, then set Y rotation to be from 0 to 360 and it will do a complete
spin. This is not in the right direction for a rolling ball, though.
[Annoying feature- you can't say from 0 to 720 for two spins,
or 0 to 3600 for ten.] To get it to roll I created a second path, which
was basically a  larger copy of the first, so the first path was
just inside of the second path. I had an axis (a track) follow this
new, outside path, then used "align to object" to make the sphere point
to the axis. Thus, as the ball moved along its path, one end (the positive
Y axis direction) was always pointed at right angles to the direction
of motion. Is this clear? Now using the "initial Y angle" and "final Y
angle" I set them to 0 and 360 and it rotated as it rolled. As a special
effect, I raised the "track path" a little in the Z direction so the
sphere looks a little bit like a top rolling around, since the spin
axis was not horizontal anymore.

An alternative would be to make a cycle object, rolling around the X axis.
This is equally valid, but I did it this way first.

The picture of me on the sphere was pretty easy. I used Digi-View
to take a picture of me with a scared/concerned expression and
my hands palm forward outstretched a little. I stood in front of a
clean, white background. I saved the pic as an IFF24 picture from Digi-
View, and used The Art Department to balance it. Digi-view's balancing
controls are fine- TAD has a couple of nice features, though, like
scaling and especially gamma correction, which increases contrast by
expanding color scales. (I'll explain if someone wants me to.) I saved
the pic as a 900x600 16 color IFF, then loaded it into Deluxe Paint III.

Deluxe Paint is a wonderful program, and has no objection to loading large
IFFs. I touched up a couple scanning artifacts with the smooth and blend
tools, then removed the background. To do this, I first used the filled
rectangle tool to fill in the big, easy to clear spots of background
(a wall in my case). I then used the stencil (frisket to you Disney
folks) to let only the brightest few whites be changable. A pass or two with
a big brush along the edge of my body, and woosh- the background was gone.
I then added a new background ( a grid of white lines) by picking my body
up as a brush and stamping it on a grid I made on the spare page. I saved
the picture, and I was done!

Imagine does not care what size the picture it maps is- they all get normalized
to the brush-axis dimension. Thus, my LARGE picture was of significantly
better quality than just a screenful. Optimally, if I had a 24 bit paint
program, like the Firecracker paint program, Colorburst's paint program,
or Toasterpaint, this would have given the highest quality output. Anyone
want to give me a Colorburst?

Wrapping is an art, and everyone should read Mike Halvorson's brush-wrapping
posted about 2 weeks ago. Its pretty good, though he mis-describes Y axis
functionality in wrap-wraps, but not in flat-flats (though maybe I'm wrong).
Luckily, wrapping spheres is a snap- you can't screw up as long as your brush's
Y axis is smaller than the radius, and the axis is centered. Complex shapes are
much more difficult, and best described in another post sometime. [Like after
I can do them consistantly!]

Anyway, the result mapped onto the sphere looks real cool. The grid wraps around
the sphere like longitude/latitude lines, and I was smart and made my grid
match up from one side to the other. This made the join on the back of the
sphere look UTTERLY undetectable, so it isn't obvious this is a flat object
wrapped onto a curve.

I rendered this 80 frame anim over about 6 days, (hires raytrace) and
it was beautiful! The glass in particular looked sleek. I then wanted to
spiff it up even more, so I added a glass arch (half a stretched torus) for
the prison-sphere to roll though, and I animated myself on the sphere.

How did I animate myself on the sphere?? This is a VERY useful trick, and
I learned it long before I had Imagine, when I was into DPaint anims. What I
did was I took a camera and VIDEOTAPED myself kinda waving my hands around
like a mime (the invisible wall in front of me, palms outward)
with the concerned/scared look on my face. After a few takes, I thought I had
the  right feel, so I booted my 3000 [well, sat down in front of it- its
always on!]  and started Digiview.

Time out: IMPORTANT! Digiview DOES work on a 3000- you must use 'CPU
nocache noburst' before you start Digiview, or it will die! I almost sold
my DV until I said "hmm. I'll try one more time. What if I .." and it worked.

Anyway, I played the tape and freeze-framed on the start of the part I liked.
YOU CAN'T USE A CHEESY 2-HEAD VCR! You need good stills. I digitized a frame,
then spent a good 10 minutes perfecting the balances. [I didn't use TAD because
it would have been a pain saving all the frames (1/2 meg each!) and loading/
balancing/saving them again. ADPro has an AREXX interface, and so does
Digi-view. This would have been an IDEAL application of AREXX!] Once I had
the balance perfected, I re-digitized, balanced, and saved the picture as
'steve001'. The 001 is important- if you save it as 'steve1' it will be
a bit harder to load into DPAINT. [You'll see!] I then forwarded 3 frames,
and digitized, and saved as 'steve002'. I did this for 40 frames. Yes, its
mind-numbing, but really only takes half an hour, and you can be listening
to tunes or talking on the phone or whatever.

Finally, I started DPaint, and blessed my extra RAM. I went into 'load picture',
selected file 'steve001' and at the bottom of the name requester, entered
'40 frames'. Dpaint then loaded the next 40 frames (alphabetically) as an anim.
See why we have steve001? It loads steve001 to steve0040 correctly. If I used
'steve1' the order would be steve1,steve10, steve11, ... steve19, steve2,
steve20 and so on.

OK, I have an anim. I play it, and voila! There I am, looking like a person
acting like he's trapped in a sphere! :-)  The quality of this method is
SURPRISINGLY good. Try it- even if you don't use Imagine. It's lots of fun!
320 by 400 animates faster if you're not doing it for Imagine, but just
want to muck around. [well worth it!] Here's an idea- tape yourself throwing
and catching a volleyball, then digitize your best friend. Remove his or her
head as a brush, then paste a copy of the head on top of the ball in every
frame of your anim. Voila! Macabre juggling! Works really well if they're
smiling.

Back to the Imagine anim. I digitized in hi-res for quality- it doesn't
animate as well in DPaint (more bandwith -> slower anims) but for our
purposes this makes no difference at all. I cleaned out the background
for all the frames by using "anim-painting"- holding down the left-amiga
as you paint. [3000 owners, you might have to change the WB prefs- this
is the default way to drag screens] By using big brushes for the easy stuff, then
stencils, a smaller brush, and a much slower pace for the edges near my body,
I removed the background from all the frames.

I picked up my body as an animbrush, then anim-painted onto a 40 frame anim
of a stationary grid. I then used "save picture" [NOT anim!] and saved 40
frames as stevebg.. DPaint is smart, and makes stevebg001, stevebg002,... and
so on.

Now what? To Imagine! I call up my project, which currently has a static
brush on the sphere. If I were starting from scratch, I would render the anim in
HAM scanline to insure the pacement of the brush and feel of the anim. Once you
animate the brush, it is not a trivial matter to change its position on the
object you're wrapping.

However, I have already done a static test. I know that my brush is in a good
position- I'm upright and centered just as I pass the camera- a good shot. I
then went into the detail editor and loaded sphere.iob [my _I_magine _OB_ject]
and entered the attributes selector, and select the brush map already there. I
changed the picture filename in the gadget to say 'stevebg.001' and exited and
saved the object as sphere001.iob. I then went back to the brush name, changed it
to 'stevebg002' and saved the sphere as sphere002.iob. Note there is no need
to RELOAD the sphere- I just save it. This goes by VERY fast once you get
started, and I had 40 objects in 5 minutes. Also, every sphere has the same
attributes and same brush position, etc. The only thing to change (the only
thing TO change) is the name of the brushmap.

To the stage editor! I already had my rolling sphere set up- remember, I
did a static version before that looked good. I deleted the "actor" that was
my sphere, keeping the position and alignment that were already there.
I then added a new actor from frame 1 to frame 1 called sphere001.iob.
I then added a new actor from frame 2 to frame 2 called sphere002.iob.
I then added a new actor from frame 3 to frame 3 called sphere003.iob.
I then added a new actor from frame 4 to frame 4 called sphere004.iob.
.....
I then added a new actor from frame 40 to frame 40 called sphere040.iob.
I then added a new actor from frame 41 to frame 41 called sphere041.iob.
....
and so on. My anim was such that my repetive motion made a pretty clean
transition from beginning to end [in DPaint] so repeating it looked all
right. If not, ping-ponging would have worked [instead of 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 ...
it goes 1 2 3 4 4 3 2 1 1 2 ...] Also, I made sure the best views (by the
camera) didn't have a transition, anyway. Entering the 80 objects again is
boring, but the file requestor is fast enough (and has last file defaults!)
so it only took 10 minutes. Alternatively, it might have been neat to see
what morphs would do- this would fade out one frame while bringing in
the next (I think) and might be worth trying sometime. This would be done by
changing the object every other frame (or even less often) and setting the
# of transition frames to 1 or more.

Well, thats it! The ray-traced anim is rendering now- the scanline version
showed me waving around just fine, and it really looked smooth! I thought
that people might like to try this technique- its roundabout, but the
results are worth it!

A note- Animation Journeyman (another renderer) supports animbrushes... must
be nice, though I haven't seen it.

If anyone wants me to clarify anything I'll be happy to. This little
essay has grown a bit in length... :-) I won't be able to post the final
anim, its HUGE!, as is the project itself (40 pictures, > 40 objects..)
though I might put a still or two on ab20 if people want me to.


Keep on rendering!

-Steve

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                         [e-mail]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: archive
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 21:03:03 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Doug Dyer)

I have a large collection of most of the threads from the start of the
group (and a little off of the net from before) and I'll stick it in
hubcap.clemson.edu under pub/amiga/incoming/3D/IMAGINE/TEXT
"imagine.archive.1" or something like that.

And anyone can just stick a text in there that would help out.

Goodbye,
Doug
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Rolling objects, animated brush maps
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 21:07:02 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Doug Dyer)

Oops, a slip up, ignore that return..

I ment to send THIS:

        I stuck a large archive at hubcap.clemson.edu in
pub/amiga/incoming/3D/IMAGINE/TEXT

        Perhaps for a really neat archive, the group could "call for effects",
"call for how to something" and have seperate files from all the submissions
(like effects.1, texturemapping.1, etc)


Well, doesn't matter. Anyway, as is there is just this huge file :)

bye,
Doug
[e-mail]

##

Subject: New to the list!
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 91 23:17:06 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdmin)

Hi there all!  I just joined this list and I'm real excited about getting
some great tips and info from here...as well as imparting some of my
knowledge. <grin>

Been working for the past few weeks on a 3D logo treatment for IEEE that
just got done about 1 week ago.  Whew!    3D globe object with continents
objects.  Globe object was a tad over 800K...what a bear.  I started with
a GIF image (640x400) of the continents and converted it to IFF.  I then
broke it into 2 parts, the USSR half and the USA half.    I then had to place
a grid on each of the images in Dpaint so that I could "bend" them in the
soon to happen conform exercise.

I saved them as brushes in Dpaint and then loaded them into Imagine as a
conversion to ILBM.  Well, that didn't work because I couldn't get the
auto-facing (boolean operation) to work...seems it ALWAYS had an edge or
face too close.  After all, this is a complex object.

So, I resorted to Pixel 3d..that did the job..

Once I got the object saved out in Silver format, I had to then load it
into TS 3.0 so that it would save the correct chunks or something because
it wouldn't just load into Imagine.  After runing through TS and saving out
it loaded right into Imagine..strange.

At any rate, I then experimented with a plane and the conform command to
figure out the best way to make these flat ilbms (well, extruded) into
a shere shape.    After a bit of tinkering I got it to work...works like a
charm but I still had to have a bunch of grids to make up smaller polygons
on the surfaces of my continents so that they would "bend" into the sphere
shape.    I've rendered it but Imagine doesn't seem to want to smooth out
these "chunks".  Which mode is the smooting mode, phong x'ed or not x'ed?

At any rate, the world spins..continents floating outside of a shiny blue
sphere.  Rotates 10 degrees a frame totalling 36 frames for a single spin.

Looks quite nice..now if I can just get rid of those darn checks..

Also, rendered it in 24-bit and converted it to the Ham-E I have here.
This makes a TON of difference.  Nice item to have if you are on a tight
budget and want to have better than Ham images or animations.  You MUST
have a 030 or Single frame the animations if you want full speed and smooth
action however.

Looking for some setting for gold if anyone would like to help me out.

BTW, I am a freelance video cameraman that is into graphics for video.

I have done several 2d and only 2 3d animations for such clients as IEEE,
GPU Nuclear, Johnson & Johnson, AT&T and several smaller businesses.

Just turned 34 last week and I'm married with a 3 year old daughter.

Hope to hear from the rest of you guys/gals out there.    Any news on a newer
version of Imagine?? <grin>


-- Bob

InterNet: [e-mail]            | Raven Enterprises
    UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!bobl           | 25 Raven Avenue
  BitNet: bobl%bobsbox.rent.com@pucc           | Piscataway, NJ 08854
  Home #: 908/560-7353                   | 908/271-8878


##

Subjects: Bugs and Comments
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 24:19:31 mst
From: steven lee webb <[e-mail]>

         Hello there, everyone in CAD/animation/Ray-tracing land!

I've found a couple bugs with Imagine, and was wondering if anyone knows
any ways around them.

1.)   Over a series of frames, when rotating the camera along it's y-axis,
      I seem to loose my picture, both in the editor mode, and in trace-mode.
      It doesn't seem to be a problem with the objects, but I DO seem to get
      a symptom.  I get a single dot in the center of the picture in editor-
      mode.  Very frusterating (sp?) if you start to render many frames, and
      look to check the first frame, (it's allright), but EVERY OTHER frame
      is completely blank!  AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

2.)   When rendering a LONG trace, it's impossible to stop the trace, and
      continue later.  With Silver, I could continue the trace where I left
      off, using the "Set Zone" command (haven't used THAT one in a while!)
      and combine the two halfs using a ham paint program, but not anymore. 8(
      A VERY big problem when running @ 8MHz like me. <pout>

3.)   If you're tracking an object with the camera in the scene editor, and
      move the object OR the camera, you have to go to the action editor to
      see the re-alignment of the camera with the object.

4.)   There is NO "FILL" MODE FOR THE IFF to ILBM CONVERTER!
      When you're changing a bit-map of fonts (this is what I use this for)
      and use the "Convert IFF/ILBM," it returns to you an out-line version of
      what you wanted, instead of a filled version.  I think that they
      promised this in the newsletters, but I moved since then, and can't find
      any evidence of this.
        One solve that I HAVE figured for this one is the following:
      Make a plane, and extrude the info that you converted from IFF -> ILBM
      conversion.  Now, cut the extruded object with the plane.  This SHOULD
      give you the desired results for your original project, but it always
      freezes on me if I do more than one letter.
        So, in the end it's kinda a toss-up between putting in all of the
      faces by myself, or "slicing" one letter at a time, and hoping that it
      doesn't freeze.

5.)   When making paths for the objects to follow, use rotate, after altering
      the first, or last points.  this will allow you to get REAL b-spline
      paths, instead of just the s-curves.  (Just a little note, the docs are
      a bit shy on this part.)

6.)   Shouldn't there be a "magnetism" mode in the FORMS editor?

7.)   In the action editor, it IS possible to delete the globals.  When you
      have LOTS of objects, and a VERY complicated scene going,  the only
      way to get your globals back is to make a new scene and start and from
      scratch.  (Boo, Impulse!!!)  ANYONE KNOW A WAY AROUND THIS?

8.)   While running another program in the background at the same time as
      Imagine, when you switch between editors and imagine does a screen-
      refresh, the Guru is just around the corner.  I have lost many hours
      of work on BOTH applications during cases like this.  Imagine doesn't
      like to share CHIP memory, even with LOTS of it left!

9.)   While I'm on a roll here, has anyone done this?
      You lay out your scene just beautiful!
      You set up your machine to render (hoping that you don't have any other
      immediate work for your amiga for the next few days)   8)
      The machine chunks away for days and nights on end, and you dream about
      what a colossal image has been created with your meager two hands.
      You come back to your terminal a few days later, and you find out that
      while in the scene editor, you were looking at the editor-view in the
      upper-right hand window, and the actual camera's view is a close-up
      of a face in some insignifigant thing, or way off into the distance, and
      you're beautiful scene is nothing but a small speck on a field of
      checker-board floor (YUK).  Perhaps in the NEXT version of Imagine (You
      guys reading this, impulse?) you could do a wire-frame, or something
      like Optiks does.  Very handy for times like this.

10.)  Do we really need the opening screen?

                       ----------------------------

P.S.  I have made a "aesthetically-pleasing" icon for imagine.  If anyone
      wants a copy of it, I'll put it on an ftp site, k?

                       ----------------------------

If the people from impulse get ahold of this mail, please do NOT take offense
to this information.  Imagine is probably the BEST piece of photo-realistic,
and animation software out for ANY personal computer today, however, (you
KNEW there would be a "however, huh?) the release of software with bugs is a
no-no.  (No dis-respect intended.)

                       ----------------------------

If you have any replys to this post, either post it here, or leave me mail
directly at: [e-mail]
I think that posting directly to the mailing list is better for replys to
the questions above, however send flames and stuff directly to me, this way
we're not messing with other's time sorting though garbage in their mail.
     _________
    /  ______/\
   /  /\_____\/    -------------------------------------------------------
  /_____   /\      The world is really an 8000 mile spherical pile of dirt
 _\____/  / /      -------------------------------------------------------
/________/ /
\________\/teven Webb  Reply to: [e-mail]
           A Computer Science Major @ Colorado State University
            I have an amiga 500 with 5MEGS RAM, and a 50MEG HD.
                   [why are you looking at me so funny?]
                     (Yes, I HAVE voided my warranty!)

##

Subject: Steven Webb's comments
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 05:10:58 EST
From: [e-mail]

Some responses to Steven Webb's paraphrased comments.

> I've found a couple bugs with Imagine ...

:-) Haven't we all?

> 3) when tracking an object and you update the position or orientation of
   the camera or object, the "track to object" doesn't update unless you go
   to the action editor.

My guess is this is actually supposed to be a feature, so you can move the
camera, adjust some objects, futz around, and THEN see your results. If it
updated after every tiny change, you'd have to wait for a lot of redraws
you don't care about.

The solution is easier than going into the action editor. Just select from
the animation menu "goto frame" or "first" and it will update. The keyboard
command is Right-Amiga-c, then hit return. A little more elegant than the
action editor.

>4) You can't auto-fill IFFs!!

Yup. The docs say there's an option. There isn't. The method you outline is
the way to go- the tutorial manual explains it.

Steve's best Imagine Trick- its time to dust this off- its important if you
haven't seen one of my posts. To auto-face, you have to extrude an outline
and cut it with a plane. This cut is 1) slow, and 2) often gives you the
angina-producing message "Edge to close to another, stupid" message.  To
fix both of these problems, do this. When you make your cutting plane (by
adding one as a primative) DO NOT USE A 10 X 10 plane. Use a 1 X 1 ! Then,
scale that thing WAY up, so that your extruded "cookie cutter" fits completely
within one of the plane's two triangles. Then, cut out the CENTER of the
triangle with the cutter. The cut goes much faster (1/200 of the number of
triangles to intersect) and never ever gives you the "too close" error.
Thats it! Pixel 3D, a commercial IFF auto-facer, does this too, but once
you know the trick its easier to do it in Imagine.

> 5) When making paths, use rotate to make them B-splines instead of
>    s-curves.

I don't understand what you mean. There are two types of paths- the cheesy
linked line segments (which are used for "Extrude along path" and the effect
"grow", and the spline paths used for objects to follow. Which are you talking
about, and what do you mean? I'm lost.

> 6) shouldn't there be magnetism in FORMS?

Couldn't agree more.

> 7) you can delete globals! you have to start over!

Yes, you can delete globals. What if you wanted to remove a set that
you didn't need anymore? This is reasonable, and you SHOULD be able to
delete them. However, there's NO PROBLEM putting them back. You can either
"undo", or more commonly, you just "Add" a new one. I just tried it to
make sure- its easy. You add it wih a click on start and stop frame,
just like actors. Have you tried this? I agree it would suck rocks if
you couldn't.

> 8) Muti-tasking gurus when Imagine refreshes.

I have NEVER had Imagine Guru. I've found lots of bugs, but no fatal
ones like the one you describe. It is running in the background now
(rendering! I'm ALWAYS rendering!) along with this comm program, Amiga-
Vision, and a solitare game. I don't doubt that your machine has gurued-
its probably one of 3 things:

         1) The other task. PD software is especially likely to not
            multitask well. Especially if its a game.

         2) Imagine version. You're using 1.0 or 1.0A, I hope?

         3) (my guess) You suspected Imagine's CHIP memory abuse. I
            have a 2M CHIP, 4M FAST A3000- you have .5M CHIP, 4.5M FAST.
            This indeed could be a problem, especially if you're using an
            interlaced screen on either task or on the WB.

  By the way, Ed Chadez- you have an A500 compatriot!

> 9) I render a scene over four  months and I find the camera was mispointed
> or something, and it's wasted!

This really isn't Imagine's fault- you should ALWAYS do a small scanline
version before you do a big trace- I've blown big renderings like this too,
so don't feel alone. Also, if people are doing big anims, don't rely on a few
test frames to make sure everything is OK. Make a small version (like 200x100)
just to get the feel of the flow- it renders fast, and you can find flaws
easier than you think. Only when you're satisfied do the real render.

You should never be surprised at your result, only delighted.


> Maybe Imagine should have a wireframe for testing...

Ok. Poof. Imagine has wireframe. Use the one in the stage editor to check
out your anim. OR, in the project editor, use your choice of BW or color
wireframe to test. You can even do a flat-shaded version, which is
surprisingly good and really goes fast. Make sure you change your
imagine.config to turn off the lines in flatshade mode. It looks 10 times
better that way.

>10) Do we really need the opening screen?

I agree, its a little annoying. [especially for those with slow HDs!].
Rick Tillery posted a way to change/remove it, though I forget how.
By the way, anyone know why that pic is used? It certainly wasn't made
by Imagine- my guess it was camera digitized.

> I made a neat icon.

Great! In WB2.0's default colors, the standard icon looks like some worms on
a pile of seaweed (totally unreadable). The place to put it is
incoming/amiga/3d/Imagine on ab20.larc.nasa.gov, and maybe on
hubcap.clemson.edu (I think thats right).

> If people from Impuse get this mail, don't take offense.

Impulse DOES get a copy- I forward it to them regularly. Don't pull any
punches, though- if there's a problem, they should know about it. Complaints
and descriptions of problems are the best way to get things fixed- they
need to know about it. I think they realize there's a lot of support for
Imagine, and a lot of interest. The existance of this list is one proof.

I would not use the term "photo-realistic".. Imagine has far too few surface/
texture controls, does not have Cook-Torrance illumination for metals,
and most importantly does not have radiosity calculations (ambient light
shadowing). Renderman is photo-realistic, Imagine is a ray-tracer,
Lightwave 3D is a polygon shader, a flight simulator is a polygon
clipper. Imagine is getting there, though, especially with things like
the altitude mapping.

Welcome to the list, Steven! (and others!)

Keep on rendering, guys.

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Imagine bugs, and anim brushes (Journeyman)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 10:02:25 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

steven lee webb <dkuug!handel.cs.colostate.edu!webbs> wrote:

> 3.)   If you're tracking an object with the camera in the scene editor, and
>       move the object OR the camera, you have to go to the action editor to
>      see the re-alignment of the camera with the object.

You could also type <Amiga+C> <Return>, this will refresh the scene.

>8.)   While running another program in the background at the same time as
>      Imagine, when you switch between editors and imagine does a screen-
>      refresh, the Guru is just around the corner.  I have lost many hours
>      of work on BOTH applications during cases like this.  Imagine doesn't
>      like to share CHIP memory, even with LOTS of it left!

I've noticed this too. Especially the scan line mode is dangerous.


>      checker-board floor (YUK).  Perhaps in the NEXT version of Imagine (You
>      guys reading this, impulse?) you could do a wire-frame, or something
>      like Optiks does.  Very handy for times like this.

I always render in color shade mode (??) before doing the final trace. This mode
is very quick, and is very good for previews.


Another idea for a (minor) enhancement:
It should be possible to modify the camera track object (an axis), I very often
start a project with for instance 30 frames, and then find that I need more
frames. It is very easy to modify all objects so that they 'live' for the new
bigger framecount, but you CAN'T modify the track object.
The only way to change it (that I know of) is by deleting it, and adding it
again.


Steve Worley <[e-mail]> Wrote:
> A note- Animation Journeyman (another renderer) supports animbrushes... must
> be nice, though I haven't seen it.

I've had Journeyman for a week now, and haven't found this feature anywhere.
Where have you heard about this???

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Re: Steven Webb's comments
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 07:35:44 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 28,  5:10am, [e-mail] wrote:
} Subject: Steven Webb's comments
}
}          2) Imagine version. You're using 1.0 or 1.0A, I hope?

Whoa!  Is version 1.0A shipping already??

}
}          3) (my guess) You suspected Imagine's CHIP memory abuse. I
}             have a 2M CHIP, 4M FAST A3000- you have .5M CHIP, 4.5M FAST.
}             This indeed could be a problem, especially if you're using an
}             interlaced screen on either task or on the WB.

Ahhhhh....  Now we're getting somewhere.  Can you eleborate more on
Imagine's CHIP memory abuse??  You probably know that I have only 512K CHIP
right now.

}
}   By the way, Ed Chadez- you have an A500 compatriot!

ONLY ONE???  C'mon Steve, is there really ONLY TWO OF US?  (Just kidding,
of course.)

Hopefully this will change in the next few months.  If Commodore doesn't
change their educational pricing (like it's been forecasted on
comp.sys.amiga.misc), I should be pickinig up a new system.  Of course,
gotta talk the wife into getting a load or somethin'.  I can't stand
running @ 8Mhz!!

}
} > I made a neat icon.
}
} Great! In WB2.0's default colors, the standard icon looks like some worms on
} a pile of seaweed (totally unreadable). The place to put it is
} incoming/amiga/3d/Imagine on ab20.larc.nasa.gov, and maybe on
} hubcap.clemson.edu (I think thats right).

Yea.  Especially us puny amiga500 users who don't run workbench in
interlace because we (sniff) don't have the memory....  (I can't take it
anymore!!  I gotta get a bigger system.  Talk about computer
claustrophobia!)

}
} -Steve
}
} ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
} Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
} ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
}
}-- End of excerpt from [e-mail]

Thanks (again) for the list, Steve.  I've saved most the the correspondance
for future reference, and have contributed a few things (mostly gripes, but
you all obviously know why...)

Render on.
--ed chadez


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Edward Chadez/System Support Specialist * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Imagine Bug
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 08:43:02 PST
From: [e-mail]

Has anyone else noticed this bug?  I took an object, a human skull,
and wrapped a brush around it..marble..anyhow I took this object
into the stage editor and resized the object to make it smaller than
it was when I originally was defining it in the detail editor..when I
went to render the scene..there appeared to be a number of *spikes*
protruding from the skull..actually looked kinda cool..but not what
I had in mind..anyhow I feel the problem is that when you resize an
object in the stage editor that the points and faces are contracted..
but the axis and any brush or attributes are *not* likewise contracted..
and some light bounces off attribute/brush information even tho
there are not points or polygons to run into..I brought the object back
into the detail editor after rendering to make sure the object hadn't somehow
gotten mucked up in transit..and sure enough..no spikes coming out of
it..just a nice skull..so the problem does appear to be with the
stage editor..I also ran into this same problem with another object
which I'd created in the forms editor and likewise resized in the
stage editor..the solution (temporary) was to bring all the objects
I was going to use in the stage editor into the detail editor and
line them up there for proper proportioning..when I *then* saved these
objects in the detail editor sized as I wanted them..the scenes
*did* render correctly.

-Mike

##

Subject: Re: Rolling objects, animated brush maps
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 12:47:33 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> A note- Animation Journeyman (another renderer) supports animbrushes... must
> be nice, though I haven't seen it.

The latest release (1.0) of Lightwave does this also. It works well but
there is a bug: if you delete your image sequence from memory, you can
no longer load additional images.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Re:  Imagine Bug
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 15:17:05 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

Mike (last name?  from The Portal System) writes:

>Has anyone else noticed this bug?  I took an object, a human skull,
>and wrapped a brush around it..marble..anyhow I took this object
>into the stage editor and resized the object to make it smaller than
>it was when I originally was defining it in the detail editor..when I
>went to render the scene..there appeared to be a number of *spikes*
>protruding from the skull..actually looked kinda cool..but not what
>I had in mind..anyhow I feel the problem is that when you resize an
>object in the stage editor that the points and faces are contracted..
>but the axis and any brush or attributes are *not* likewise contracted..


    I encountered something similar (no "spikes" in mine though) on my
mannequin project.  You MUST be careful when you resize objects in the
STAGE editor.  I found that I needed to be in the GLOBAL (not LOCAL) mode
to get things to work out right.  And Mike is correct with respect to the
TEXTURE attributes.  I had the WOOD texture and grain nicely chosen for my
original object.  When I shrunk it by a factor of 100 and rendered it, the
texture lines were gone.  It turns out that all the info that is in the
EDIT TEXTURE window is unaffected by all of this shrinking or expanding.
You must change these in the DETAIL Editor. Also, if you are MORPHING one
object into another, these Details are not affected.  What do I mean?  I
morphed a wood object into a black GLOSSY object.  As I carefully watched the
object morph animation, I saw that the BASE color of my tan wood slowly
changed into black over the 25 frames of my animation.  However, the wood
GRAIN color remained constant.  Then the GRAIN just 'popped' out (disappeared
from one frame to another) from frame 24 to 25.  This does make some interesting
effects, but it was NOT what I wanted.

I did find a work-around for this (don't we seem to spend a lot of time finding
out how to use UNDOCUMENTED features to work around things the the DOCUMENTED
features cannot handle ;^))?? ).  In the STAGE editor, I moved to FRAME 24 and
SAVED this object as OBJ.FR24 (or something like this).  I loaded it into
the DETAIL editor and changed the grain color to something more reasonable
(it went from Dark Brown to black, so I just lowered the intensities on all
guns to almost black).  I then went back to the STAGE editor and did the
following.  I deleted my original morphing object.  Then I loaded the starting
wood object into frame 1.  I then loaded my OBM.FR24 into frames 2-24 with a
transition of 23 (or is it 22?  I forget.).  Then I loaded my FINAL black
object into frame 25.  Thus, Imagine thinks it is morphing from one wood
texture to another for 24 frames and then to a solid (non-textured) surface
in frame 25.  From frames 1-24, both the base color AND the grain color
morph.  I suppose that I could have simply KEPT the wood texture on and
morphed from my original wood texture in frame 1 to a BLACK base color and
BLACK grain colored wood in frame 25.  This would have saved me from using
3 different objects for this, but I wanted to remove the wood completely.


Later,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Steve Worley's comments
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 18:53:31 mst
From: steven lee webb <[e-mail]>

Hello, me again!

To expand on Steve Worley's comments:

>> 5) When making paths, use rotate to make them B-splines instead of
>>    s-curves.
> what do you mean? I'm lost.

I was refering to the spline paths that are created in the stage editor that
are used for objects to follow.

If you start manipulating the points (or knots) on both ends of the spline,
you get sort of an "S"-looking path.  I tried for ever to get some kind of a
different path shape. (perhaps a fish-hook, or a tear-drop.)  I accidentially
stumbled upon the rotate command (at the bottom of the screen) while I had
the path activated.  I started rotating it, and got some GOOD B-splines!
It was NOW possible to do the tear-drop and others!
[The rotate command and the paths are in no way related to one another in the
manual]

>         2) Imagine version. You're using 1.0 or 1.0A, I hope?

Uh,...  I'm running version 1.0, the version that is selling commercially
as far as I know, the only one.  Is there going to be a free up-date for
V. 1.0a? or do we get to pay more?  If you HAVE version 1.0a, I'd bet that'd
be the reason for the many discrepancies between Imagine experiences.  Still
didn't implement the fill in the IFF --> ILBM conversion in V1.0a?

                       ----------------------------

Since the post about a Version 1.0a of Imagine, I'll withold the rest of my
replys to Steve Worley's post, in hopes to get an update to version 1.0a
soon.  (free?)   MY BUG REPORTS WERE CONCERNING VERSION 1.0, SORRY.

                       ----------------------------

Another thing...  Has anyone gotten the disk of FX?  They are supposed to
include an effect that controls acceleration and changing of velocities like
in DPaintIII.  This is another thing that they advertised in their
newsletters, and didn't include with imagine.  It WILL be on a seperate disk
(not free) that will have a bunch of Special effects on it (or so they have
said on the telephone).  If anyone has received this extra disk?  If so, is it
worth the extra bucks?

P.S.  Got a stumper for ya!

     OK, you have all seen "The Last Starfighter", no?

     Try and make some "Thrust"  8)  What I mean is the engine exaust that is
half see-through, and half not.  I figured it out, but it looks cheezy.
     My solution was to make a half-transparent object in the shape of the
thrust, and make about 20 copies of it, each one a bit smaller than the last.
stick them all inside each other, and you have an object that looks like it
is denser in the middle than the edges, but not quite what I had expected.
Perhaps it could be possible to make an attribute of "Fog" or something.
I know that the applications are kinda' limited to making thrust, or a neon
glow, or something, but WHAT'S A SPACESHIP WITHOUT THRUST?!?!?

P.P.S.  I put my icon @ ab20.  It's @ incoming/amiga/3d/imagine, k?
        It's says "version 1.0", not "version 1.0a", sorry folks.
     _________
    /  ______/\
   /  /\_____\/    ------------------------------------------------
  /_____   /\      A seminar on time travel will be held a week ago
 _\____/  / /      ------------------------------------------------
/________/ /
\________\/teven Webb  Reply to: [e-mail]
           A Computer Science Major @ Colorado State University
     "Spelling" is NOT a prerequsite for a degree in Computer Science!
            I have an amiga 500 with 5MEGS RAM, and a 50MEG HD.
                   [why are you looking at me so funny?]
                     (Yes, I HAVE voided my warranty!)


##

Subject: Unstable backgrounds in Imagine
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 21:01:12 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Dave Schreiber)

In the course of rendering several different animations using Imagine, I've
noticed that backgrounds have a tendancy to "flicker."  This isn't
interlacing flicker, but a lack of stability of the background:  parts
of the animation that aren't supposed to change nevertheless have a large
number of individual pixels that vary in color, by a small amount, from
frame to frame.  For instance, when using a checkered background, some
grey pixels (the results of dithering between black and white checks)
will sometimes change from a dark grey to a lighter grey, then back
again.  Has anyone else noticed anything like this, and can anyone give
any recommendations on how to stop it?  I'm rendering 320x200 12-bit
images, which are converted to HAM and made into a animation.  I've noticed
the same problem with 320x400.  The only thing I can think of is that the
palette is not being "locked" (the same thing happened under Silver when
I would export a number of HAM images without locking the palette).

My hardware configuration, BTW, is a 3000/25 with 4Mbfast/2Mb chip.  Any
help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Dave Schreiber                                    [e-mail]
                                or (but not both) [e-mail]
"It was fun learning about logic, but I don't see where or when I will ever
use it again."



##

Subject: Imagine on an A500
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 22:19:31 mst
From: steven lee webb <[e-mail]>

Ed:

As one of the ONLY A500 owners that are BOLD enough to try escapades such as
animation and ray-tracing on their machine, I bid you a hearty Handshake from
the land of add-ons!

I'm running with .5MEGS CHIP RAM, and 4.5 MEGS FAST RAM.  My next purchase for
my frankenstein of Amigas will be probably a DCTV and a 14MHz accelerator.

By the way, just for the sake of repetition...

    _____________________________________________________________________
   /                                                                     \
   \                      Sick of your OLD imagine icon?                 /
   /                   Yes?  Just pay a quick visit to ab20              \
   \                    at 128.155.23.64, and ftp yourself               /
   /                    to a beautiful, embossed icon that               \
   \                      will make it a pleasure to open                /
   /                      your "Animation" drawer again!                 \
   \_____________________________________________________________________/

"Keep your Mouse balls clean!"

-- Steve.


##

Subject: Problem with Renderer?
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 91 14:41:55 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

Hello All,

 I seem to have run into a bug in the renderer of Imagine; I recall
someone else mentioning this problem but cannot remember where.  Anyway,
I have an indoor scene with a marble floor(mid - high reflectivity)
and an extruded tile reflecting pool with the grid texture applied to it.
The rear wall, from the camera view, is perforated with patterns; through
it one can look upon an outdoor scene.  The problem is that when rendering,
in scanline or trace, the rear wall color is applied to the front half of
the reflecting pool(foreground object)which has totally different attributes.
The degree of pool discoloration seems to be related to the value of
the floor's reflectivity.  If I lower the floor's reflectivity the
discoloration lessens somewhat.  The discoloration also appears to be related
to the size of the rear wall; if I raise the wall so that it is not touching
the floor or decrease its size, both unacceptable, the problem lessens but
does not completely go away.  I know that I can touch it up in a paint
program, but what a pain!.  Anyone encounter/find a work-around to this?

mark

p.s.  This frame's X and Y dimensions are 2456x2232.  When I first
rendered the scene the area behind my rear wall was black(didn't render).
I changed the SIZE in the GLOBALS requestor to 2500,2500,2500 and it
rendered fine except for the above. i.e. I changed the world's size


##

Subject: Some questions...
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 91 11:26:18 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

Fellow Imagine users:

As a novice 3D software package user (Imagine is my very first), I
have finally gotten to the point where I can pose some questions.
Some of you might remember my post just before Steve Worley started
the mailing list.  I was the one who could not even make it past the
first tutorial in the manual and was desperately seeking some help.  I
was just about ready to give up and go back to using Deluxpaint (which
at the time I thought was the best piece of software and documentation
I had ever used).  I remember several people who replied with
suggestions and offers to help.  Most everyone said, the learning
curve is tough ("a learning wall" -- Steve Worley) but stick with it,
it is worth it.  Well, things have changed, and I am hooked in a big
way.  Imagine, in spite of the very weak documentation, is an awesome
product.  I am only on the fringes right now, still learning the
basics, but I am hooked.  What was before a mind-boggling array of
parameters and attributes, now seem very sensible (and even
user-friendly).  The documentation needs a complete overhaul however.
Examples in the reference manual would be a major step forward.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who helped me get to this point (special
thanks to Steve Worley who organized the mailing list and has given me
large amounts of time to get me over the learning wall).

That said, the questions.

Question 1: I have successfully created paths in the Stage Editor
(very simple and intuitive), but am having difficulty in creating
paths in the Detail Editor to extrude an object along a path.  I
created an object starting with an axis and adding some points and
connected them with lines.  I wanted to extrude the object on a
semi-circular path.  I followed the instructions in the manual that
described how to make a path (add multiple axes, align the y axes in
the direction I wanted the path to go, sort the axes, and select MAKE
PATH).  All seemed to be working well.  A curved line with one axis
where there had been many now existed on my screen.  I saved the new
object.  I then selected the object that I wanted to extrude on the
path and selected EXTRUDE from the menu.  I selected ALONG PATH and
entered the name of the path in the PATH box and pressed <RETURN>.  I
selected OK and received the message: Path not found (or something
like that).  I checked the objects available in the FIND BY REQUESTER
box and found that my object was names AXIS.1 instead of the name that
I had given it.  AXIS.1 was indeed the path, so I tried to EXTRUDE using
the same steps as described above using AXIS.1 instead of the actual
name of the path.  I received the message: illegal parameters (or
something like that).  What am I doing wrong?  I tried to use a path I
had created in the Stage Editor that I had used to create an
animation.  That did not work either.  Another related question: can I
use paths created in the Stage editor as extrude paths or do they have
to be created in the Detail Editor?

Question 2: I am finding that there is a huge difference in trace
rendering times for scenes I am creating.  One still image had a robot
vehicle, between two relective balls and a black glossy chesspiece
(rendering time: 5 hours).  Another scene with a mirror wall and
floor, a wall with brick texture, and a colored ball took 15 minutes
(I had expected that one would take a long time.)  Currently I am
doing my first animation (30 frames with black glossy chesspiece,
mirrored ball, red ball, low reflective blue and black checkerboard
floor).  I have one elliptical defined on the checkerboard with the
camera aligned to 3 objects (at different points in the animation)
moving on the path.  Each frame has many changes (the camera moves in
on each of the three objects -- one frame has the mirrored ball
practically filling the screen).  The render time has been about 24
hours so far. I expect it to go about 2 hours more.

What situations, parameters, attribute values, etc. require the most
trace rendering time?  Why is there such a difference?  Does the size of the
objects, the % of the Imagine universe that objects occupy (scale, I
guess) make a big difference?  I just want to get a sense of the
tradeoffs.  Does brush mapping increase the rendering time
dramatically?  (I have not done brush mapping -- it's next on the
list).

Question 3 (last one for now):  I noticed the dreaded jaggies on the mirrored
ball that fills the screen mentioned above.  Is there anything I can do to
avoid them?  I had thought that closeups on spheres (even in ham resolution)
made it easier for the software to compensate for jaggies (more pixels in
the curve).  Will 24-bit rgb color (Colorburst) seriously reduce the jaggies
even in HAM resolution (320x400)?

Thanks.

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: Re: Some questions...
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 91 12:18:07 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

Rich,

> Question 3 (last one for now):  I noticed the dreaded jaggies on the mirrored
> ball that fills the screen mentioned above.  Is there anything I can do to
> avoid them?  I had thought that closeups on spheres (even in ham resolution)
> made it easier for the software to compensate for jaggies (more pixels in
> the curve).  Will 24-bit rgb color (Colorburst) seriously reduce the jaggies
> even in HAM resolution (320x400)?

There are two ways to remove the jaggies: higher resolution or good
antialiasing with zillions of colors. For a sphere that fills the whole
screen, HAM should provide reasonable results provided the image has been
antialiased. Where HAM will really begin to faulter is smaller objects
in an image with many colors. 24bit color will not remove the jaggies,
it will merely allow antialiasing to do its job better. So 320 x 400 can
have less noticeable jaggies than in HAM, but with a Colorburst board
why limit yourself to only 320 x 400 if jaggies are a concern. It will
not save you rendering time because the time spent antialiasing will be
nearly equivalent to rendering at the higher resolution.

Hope this helps.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Re: Unstable backgrounds in Imagine
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 91 12:34:38 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdmin)

:In the course of rendering several different animations using Imagine, I've
:noticed that backgrounds have a tendancy to "flicker."  This isn't
:interlacing flicker, but a lack of stability of the background:  parts
:of the animation that aren't supposed to change nevertheless have a large
:number of individual pixels that vary in color, by a small amount, from
:frame to frame.  For instance, when using a checkered background, some
:grey pixels (the results of dithering between black and white checks)
:will sometimes change from a dark grey to a lighter grey, then back
:again.  Has anyone else noticed anything like this, and can anyone give

Sorry, but I haven't had that happen to me..but then again, I've been
rendering on black or genlocked backgrounds..you know..logo stuff.

:any recommendations on how to stop it?  I'm rendering 320x200 12-bit
:images, which are converted to HAM and made into a animation.    I've noticed
:the same problem with 320x400.  The only thing I can think of is that the
:palette is not being "locked" (the same thing happened under Silver when
:I would export a number of HAM images without locking the palette).

Am I missing something here or what?  It seems to me that if you want a
final HAM mode animation that you would just pick 12-bit ILBM files in
your render requestor.    For that matter, if you wanted a HAM animation as
the final product, wouldn't you also just pick ANIM format in the same
requestor?  After all, Imagine renders typical Ham ILBM images and
animations directly.

Anymore, I don't even render in 12-bit.  I render all my stuff in 24-bit
IFF format and then use converters if I want to make the images/anim
another format.  If you render to 24bit IFF, you can basically go any
way you want with converters such as The Art Dept. Pro or whatever.

We've currently been rendering 24-bit IFF's and then converting them to
HAM-E images/anims.  This is a low-cost way to improve your output.  But
then again, all my stuff goes to video tape.  In fact, when I design any
animation, it is designed with online editing in mind.

That means that if I wanted an object to spin around it's Z axis and then
move somewhere, I would make 2 animations.  One would be say 30 frames for
a single rotation of the object.  The second one would be the rest of the
objects movement.  In this way, I can loop the spining part on video tape
as much as I want and then match-frame edit the rest of the movement onto
the end of the spin.

:My hardware configuration, BTW, is a 3000/25 with 4Mbfast/2Mb chip.  Any
:help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Sorry I couldn't be of help.

Another question I have and I'm sure has been said before.  Why in the
world are the Impulse axis all wrong.  I mean..traditionally X is
horizontal, Y is vertical, and Z is depth.  Seems we have Y and Z backwards
no?

I can live with it but everything else I've ever seen conforms to the
more typical scenario I stated in the previous paragraph.

-- Bob

InterNet: [e-mail]            | Raven Enterprises
    UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!bobl           | 25 Raven Avenue
  BitNet: bobl%bobsbox.rent.com@pucc           | Piscataway, NJ 08854
  Home #: 908/560-7353                   | 908/271-8878


##

Subject: Confused learner
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 91 16:05 CST
From: [e-mail] (Duane Fields)

I am new to Imagine and have some really BASIC questions, so bear with me.
According to the "manual" to add points I must go to one view, enter add
points mode, then go to the other view and place it. What does this mean.
I can only figure out how to plot points in the 2 dimensions defined by
the current view, with the 3rd dimension as 0.00. Any ideas?

Duane

##

Subject: snapshot
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 91 01:13:27 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

Hello all,

Snapshot has NEVER worked for me.  I cannot snapshot frames nor
objects.  What are your specific steps when you use the snapshot
function?  Whenever I choose the snapshot function nothing happens,
no requestor; it is as if I didn't select the menu item.

mark

ps.  my hardware config is an A2000 w/9meg(4-32bit/4-16bit), GVP
A3001(28Mhz cpu/33Mhz FPU), GVP w/Conner 200meg drive.

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 91 09:20:00 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Mar 2,  1:13am, "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" wrote:
} Subject: snapshot
}
} Hello all,
}
} Snapshot has NEVER worked for me.  I cannot snapshot frames nor
} objects.  What are your specific steps when you use the snapshot
} function?  Whenever I choose the snapshot function nothing happens,
} no requestor; it is as if I didn't select the menu item.

In the stage editor:

First I select an object I want saved.  Second I select snapshot from the
menus.  Third, I enter a unique filename for the object.

NOTE: As far as I can tell, the only advantage to snapshot is to save an
object while it is morphing or while an effect is working on it (ie, it is
exploding).  The saved "snapshotted" object is compatible with the detail
editor, so you can load it in and modify it, or load the exploded object
into another piece of work.

Also note that some users had to select snapshot several times for it to
work at all.  I have not had this problem.

}
} mark
}
} ps.  my hardware config is an A2000 w/9meg(4-32bit/4-16bit), GVP
} A3001(28Mhz cpu/33Mhz FPU), GVP w/Conner 200meg drive.

My configuration, as most of you already know, is an Amiga500 with 512K
Chip ram and 1.5Megs of Fast ram, all 16-Bit, and a MC68000 (8Mhz).  The
32Meg hard drive has been sold.

}
}-- End of excerpt from "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749"


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Edward Chadez/System Support Specialist * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: Problem with Renderer?
Date:    Sat, 2 Mar 91 14:31 EST
From: "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]>

     So THAT's how you change the world size!  The size requester in the Global
s section!!!!!  Is this true?  I'm gonna play with it, but has anytbody else
found this?

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
| -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
| -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
| --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
| Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
\---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/

##

Subject: Re: Unstable backgrounds in Imagine
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 91 15:01:42 mst
From: steven lee webb <[e-mail]>


                      Hey!  [e-mail]

       This is a public reply to your post at [e-mail]

   I have also experienced those WEIRD, changing dots in my animations.
                            Kinda a drag, huh?

I don't know how to fix them, except for rendering everything "non-dithered"

 I know that it doesn't look the same, but this way, all of your surfaces
           stay the same color throughout your entire animation.

 Also, did you know that rendering in dithered mode (since it causes those
        stray color-changing pixels causes BIGGER & SLOWER frames?

If you stay in non-dithered mode, granted, you'll get the "feather" effect,
but You'll get FASTER ANIMATIONS!  (This is GOOD if you're running @ 8MHz)

                  Well, time to do some REAL work...  8(

 By the way (general public) anyone interested in an imagine object of the
          tron tank?  If I get any answers, I'll put it on ab20.
     _________
    /  ______/\
   /  /\_____\/    ------------------------------------------------
  /_____   /\      A seminar on time travel will be held a week ago
 _\____/  / /      ------------------------------------------------
/________/ /
\________\/teven Webb  Reply to: [e-mail]
           A Computer Science Major @ Colorado State University
     "Spelling" is NOT a prerequsite for a degree in Computer Science!
            I have an amiga 500 with 5MEGS RAM, and a 50MEG HD.
                   [why are you looking at me so funny?]
                     (Yes, I HAVE voided my warranty!)

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 91 18:16:49 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

Ed,

Sometimes in the Stage editor I resize and move objects.  I wanted
to use snapshot to save the edited object.  I will try selecting
snapshot several times and report what I find.

re: world size - it works for me  ;^)

mark

##

Subject: TRON tank
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 91 19:23:20 mst
From: steven lee webb <[e-mail]>

Hey all you people out there tracing rays of light...

(Isn't that kinda hard to do?)

I have posted my TRON TANK at ab20 in the directory:
       incoming/amiga/3d/Imagine

The shape has a bit too many points in it, if anyone wants to clean it up,
you're welcome to it, and PLEASE re-post it!  I'd love a simpler version!

-- Steve.


##

Subject: Re: Some questions...
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1991 02:42:47 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

Richard Nollman <[e-mail]> writes:


>Fellow Imagine users:

>As a novice 3D software package user (Imagine is my very first), I

>That said, the questions.

>Question 1: I have successfully created paths in the Stage Editor
>(very simple and intuitive), but am having difficulty in creating
>paths in the Detail Editor to extrude an object along a path.  I
>created an object starting with an axis and adding some points and
>connected them with lines.  I wanted to extrude the object on a
>semi-circular path.  I followed the instructions in the manual that
>described how to make a path (add multiple axes, align the y axes in
>the direction I wanted the path to go, sort the axes, and select MAKE
>PATH).  All seemed to be working well.  A curved line with one axis
>where there had been many now existed on my screen.  I saved the new
>object.  I then selected the object that I wanted to extrude on the
>path and selected EXTRUDE from the menu.  I selected ALONG PATH and
>entered the name of the path in the PATH box and pressed <RETURN>.  I
>selected OK and received the message: Path not found (or something
>like that).  I checked the objects available in the FIND BY REQUESTER
>box and found that my object was names AXIS.1 instead of the name that
>I had given it.  AXIS.1 was indeed the path, so I tried to EXTRUDE using
>the same steps as described above using AXIS.1 instead of the actual
>name of the path.  I received the message: illegal parameters (or
>something like that).  What am I doing wrong?  I tried to use a path I
>had created in the Stage Editor that I had used to create an
>animation.  That did not work either.  Another related question: can I
>use paths created in the Stage editor as extrude paths or do they have
>to be created in the Detail Editor?

No you can't use the stage editors paths for extrusion. As for your
problems with extrusions, just make sure that the object to be extruded
and the extrusion path have distinct names (and don't forget to hit
RETURN whenever you fill in a requester (the charcters will capitalize
when you do that)

>Question 2: I am finding that there is a huge difference in trace
>rendering times for scenes I am creating.  One still image had a robot
>vehicle, between two relective balls and a black glossy chesspiece
>(rendering time: 5 hours).  Another scene with a mirror wall and
>floor, a wall with brick texture, and a colored ball took 15 minutes
>(I had expected that one would take a long time.)  Currently I am
>doing my first animation (30 frames with black glossy chesspiece,
>mirrored ball, red ball, low reflective blue and black checkerboard
>floor).  I have one elliptical defined on the checkerboard with the
>camera aligned to 3 objects (at different points in the animation)
>moving on the path.  Each frame has many changes (the camera moves in
>on each of the three objects -- one frame has the mirrored ball
>practically filling the screen).  The render time has been about 24
>hours so far. I expect it to go about 2 hours more.

>What situations, parameters, attribute values, etc. require the most
>trace rendering time?  Why is there such a difference?  Does the size of the
>objects, the % of the Imagine universe that objects occupy (scale, I
>guess) make a big difference?  I just want to get a sense of the
>tradeoffs.  Does brush mapping increase the rendering time
>dramatically?  (I have not done brush mapping -- it's next on the
>list).
The list is long: reflections and refractions increase rendering time
significantly, anti-aliasing (0 longest)-btw this you must edit in
the .config file and resolve depth (also in .config file), number
of polygons, camera position (obliqueness), size of brush maps and
even the numerical entries of solid textures, resolution, display
and render modes etc etc. The big ones are refraction, edge level(anti
aliasing , reflection (along with "depth") and #of polygons. Pretty
well in that order too. Remember that a higher refraction index is
longer rendering time also.
And yes the scale of the object means a LOT. Imagine uses something called
*Octree* to calculate the scene. I no nothing about it other than the
larger the scale of the object, the faster it will render.The difference
can go from *hours* to minutes.So scale your scene big. Select everything
in the scene (including camera and lights) and scale it interactively.
Don't worry, this won't disturb your camera view or anything like that.

>Question 3 (last one for now):  I noticed the dreaded jaggies on the mirrored
>ball that fills the screen mentioned above.  Is there anything I can do to
>avoid them?  I had thought that closeups on spheres (even in ham resolution)
>made it easier for the software to compensate for jaggies (more pixels in
>the curve).  Will 24-bit rgb color (Colorburst) seriously reduce the jaggies
>even in HAM resolution (320x400)?

 The .config file for anti-aliasing defaults to 30. This is ok, but not
great. The best is 0 and final rendering should always be 0. So you must
edit this file everyso often (before opening Im) or build a front end
on the work bench (requires programming knowlege, though). Btw , the
anti-aliasing is EDLE in .config file.
>Thanks.

>Rich Nollman

Hope it helps -stephen
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1991 02:14:44 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

"Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]> writes:

>Hello all,
>
>Snapshot has NEVER worked for me.  I cannot snapshot frames nor
>objects.  What are your specific steps when you use the snapshot
>function?  Whenever I choose the snapshot function nothing happens,
>no requestor; it is as if I didn't select the menu item.

>mark

>ps.  my hardware config is an A2000 w/9meg(4-32bit/4-16bit), GVP
>A3001(28Mhz cpu/33Mhz FPU), GVP w/Conner 200meg drive.

My configuration is similar to yours, though I don't think that has
anything to do with it. I have the same problem with snapshot that
you do though.(Btw Impulse is aware of probelms folks are having with
it). First, you ca't snapshot a frame, only a *selected object*.
Second, select your object and go to snapshot in the menu. If it doesn't
present you with a file requester to save the object, keep going to
(even if you go ten times). It should work eventually. In the beginning
it used to take 5 or 6 times for me, now it comes up on the first try.
(it was just a little rusty:-)). Hope you get it going 'cause the snapshot
feature can can really help you do neat things.

cya -stephen
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Imagine Rendering Problems
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 91 11:09:10 PST
From: [e-mail]

I am having problems with Imagine that appear, to me, to be rendering
bugs. The problem I am speaking of manifests itself as white areas
rendering on objects or entire objects rendering as white that have
colored attributes. Mostly the problems seem to appear to be with
flat surfaces.

One example is if I build a cube from scratch. It has two faces per
side and is about 200x200. I colored this cube purple (or any other
color) and didn't give it any other attributes (save for dithering
being at 255). When this cube is rendered with a white light and no
other objects in the scene, in scanline or full trace mode the cube
ends up completely white, no shading whatsoever. I don't know the
exact distance the light is from the object, but it is pretty far
away, basically right next to the camera. However, if I render this
object in color shaded mode, it does come out purple (the proper
color).

A different, and even more puzzling manifestation is a rectangular
object. This object was built starting with a primitive plane, then
extruded by about 10 deep. The object is standing up with it's short
side vertical, long side horizontal. When this object is rendered,
it shows up mostly as the correct color, but there are small patches
of white on the corners. When I speak of these patches of white,
they are not highlights. The edges are completely straight and there
is no shading whatsoever. Again, with this object there are no
attributes turned on but color and dithering.

The third manifestation is equally bizzare. This is again a flat
rectangular object. Started with a primitive plane and extruded
slightly thicker that the one previously mentioned. I should mention
here that the objects I am working with have been built by my
students. I am trying to find out for them why these problems are
occuring. So I do not know the exact steps each of these objects
were created in, as is the case with the one I am describing now.
The first one I spoke of I created myself. The second one, I
didn't create, but was able to make a similar object myself that
rendered with the same problems. This third object, I haven't
tried to create on my own now, but what I can tell of the object.
It seems to be the same as object #2 above, only larger. However,
the rendering problems are different. This really strange. As I
stated it is flat and rectangular (meant to be a table top).
This object is supposedly colored, however, when rendered, the
edges are white and a border around the perimeter on top is
white. The center of the top, inside the perimeter is BLACK.
See Below:


                        Viewed from above

    ______________________________________________________________
   |                                 |
   |                WHITE                 |
   |    -----------------------------------------------------     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    |            BLACK                |     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    |                            |     |
   |    -----------------------------------------------------     |
   |                                 |
   |                                 |
   |_____________________________________________________________|


There were never any separate faces selected to have different
attributes. As a matter of fact, for each of the objects mentioned,
I have gone back into the detail editor and manually selected all
faces and saved it back out to be sure that they were all the same.

The strangest thing is that it seems to be obviously not rendering
specific faces. Phong shading is on for all of this. But there is
no shading in these white areas and the edges of the areas are
deliberate straight lines.

Well, that's basically it. I have also seen various white patches
like these on much more complicated scenes. Mostly showing up as,
what looked like single faces, or small groups of faces rendering
white.

By the way, we are rendering on Amiga 3000/25Mhz machines with
between 6-10MB of memory, under Workbench 2.0, using the FP
version of Imagine 1.0. These have been tried on several different
machines under 2.0 and 1.3 with the same results in all cases.

I expect that others have run into the same problems. Have there
been any solutions? I haven't tried running the non-FP version,
but I hope that isn't the problem. If it is a problem with the
renderer, has Impulse released a fix yet?

Any responses or help would be greatly appreciated.

=======================================================================
Sean Schur                        USENET: [e-mail]
Assistant Director Amiga/Media Lab        Compuserve: 70731,1102
Character Animation Department            Plink: OSS259
California Institute of the Arts
=======================================================================


##

Subject: rendering problems
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 91 15:31:43 EST
From: [e-mail]

A long time ago, I had a strange rendering of a flat plane- it was all white,
despite attributes that said it was red. It was made of 4 triangles. (no
more detail was needed)

Turning phong off made it go away. It WAS a bug, but I got around it.

-Steve


PS: Anyone know how to E-Mail Mike Halvorson himself? Rick R., this is
especially directed to you. I don't have P/Link access.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 91 13:09:15 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

I tried selecting the object and selecting Snapshot 10-20
times with the same results, nothing.  arghhhhh.  This
is really strange.  I am going to see if it works without
the accelerator.  Also, in Silver when I wanted to change
the attributes for multiple objects I just multi-selected
the objects that I wanted to change and the requestor popped
up for each object after the previous one was modified.  Have
you gotten this to work in Imagine?  I just get the requestor
for the first object I selected then nothing.

Thanks for the idea of multi-selecting objects in the Stage
editor and resizing.  I've been doing it the long(hard)
way.

Another thing that I have found is that after creating a
scene in the Stage editor, then deciding that I want an
animation and adjusting the highest frame count, my
scene gets mangled in the first frame.  I only tried
this once, but after adjusting the "main" highest frame
count gadget in the Action editor I proceded to adjust
the highest frame count in all the actors, sizes, etc...
tedious job.  When I finished I went to the last frame
and all was fine but when I went to the first frame all
my objects were distorted(squashed, out-sized, and just
munged up)as if the action editor decided to morph
everything from size 0 in frame one to the objects
original sizes in the highest frame.  I assumed that
I must have messed up, so I started over with the same
results.  Also I couldn't adjust the highest frame #
of the "track axis".  Any suggestions?

mark

##

Subject: Re: Imagine Rendering Problems
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 91 13:23:06 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

I've encountered similar problems when rendering various
objects, most being extruded.  I found that changing the size
and location of the axis got around this.  I make sure that
the ends of the axes extend beyond the bounds of the object
before I enter the attributes requestor.  So far, it appears to
work.  You might want to try this.  I've imported objects from
Turbo Silver, most usually have a tiny axis, and have NOT encounterd
this problem.  It appears only with Imagine created objects.

mark

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 91 18:46:13 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdmin)

ORIGINALLY From rutgers!soomee.zso.dec.com!davis Sun, 3 Mar 91 18:13:59 EST
:
:I tried selecting the object and selecting Snapshot 10-20
:times with the same results, nothing.    arghhhhh.  This
:is really strange.  I am going to see if it works without
:the accelerator.  Also, in Silver when I wanted to change
:the attributes for multiple objects I just multi-selected
:the objects that I wanted to change and the requestor popped
:up for each object after the previous one was modified.  Have
:you gotten this to work in Imagine?  I just get the requestor
:for the first object I selected then nothing.

Strange, snapshot seems to work for me everytime.  I'm running on a stock
Amiga 2000HD with 5 megs of RAM under WB 2.02.    Also, the attributes
adjustment seems to work just fine.  I just multi-select all the objects
I want to change the attributes to (with the Shift key) and then hit F7.
Each attributes requestor pops up in turn until all the objects have been
adjusted.

:Thanks for the idea of multi-selecting objects in the Stage
:editor and resizing.  I've been doing it the long(hard)
:way.

You mean selecting each object and then resizing them one at at time??

:Another thing that I have found is that after creating a
:scene in the Stage editor, then deciding that I want an
:animation and adjusting the highest frame count, my
:scene gets mangled in the first frame.  I only tried
:this once, but after adjusting the "main" highest frame
:count gadget in the Action editor I proceded to adjust
:the highest frame count in all the actors, sizes, etc...
:tedious job.  When I finished I went to the last frame
:and all was fine but when I went to the first frame all
:my objects were distorted(squashed, out-sized, and just
:munged up)as if the action editor decided to morph
:everything from size 0 in frame one to the objects
:original sizes in the highest frame.  I assumed that
:I must have messed up, so I started over with the same
:results.  Also I couldn't adjust the highest frame #
:of the "track axis".  Any suggestions?

Well, it seems to me that this will happen if you don't split your channel
from the first frame (where you want stuff to be exactly) to the second
frame.    I usually setup my scenes so that I have the first frame all set as
it should be and then I do my transformation from frames 2-whatever.  In
this way, the first frame is ALWAYS where it's suppose to be no matter what
changes I make in the remaining animation.  If you look at your channel it
should have a break between frames 1 and 2 and then be continuous (if
that's the way your animation works out) from 2 on.

I want to point out that this is the way I "found" it to work.  I don't
know if this is the preferred method.  It seems to work for me.

Also, did you guys know about spinning objects 360 or more degree's in the
stage/action editors?  You MUST break the spins up into a few parts to get
it to go all the way around.  It's very strange if you ask me.  It seems
to me that a "good" user interface would just allow you to specify a TOTAL
amount of degrees in either a positive or negative rotation to determine
which way it was going.  For example: I would expect to enter in 720 for
and object to rotate 2 times in a positive direction and -720 for the
opposite direction.  Why can't someone design this into the software??  The
way we have to break up the channel and enter in parts of the spin is both
time consuming and a pain in the butt.    Ah well.
:
:mark
:


-- Bob

InterNet: [e-mail]            | Raven Enterprises
    UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!bobl           | 25 Raven Avenue
  BitNet: bobl%bobsbox.rent.com@pucc           | Piscataway, NJ 08854
  Home #: 908/560-7353                   | 908/271-8878


##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 91 19:54:52 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

Mark W. Davis writes:

>Another thing that I have found is that after creating a
>scene in the Stage editor, then deciding that I want an
>animation and adjusting the highest frame count, my
>scene gets mangled in the first frame.  I only tried
>this once, but after adjusting the "main" highest frame
>count gadget in the Action editor I proceded to adjust
>the highest frame count in all the actors, sizes, etc...
>tedious job.  When I finished I went to the last frame
>and all was fine but when I went to the first frame all
>my objects were distorted(squashed, out-sized, and just
>munged up)as if the action editor decided to morph
>everything from size 0 in frame one to the objects
>original sizes in the highest frame.  I assumed that
>I must have messed up, so I started over with the same
>results.  Also I couldn't adjust the highest frame #
>of the "track axis".  Any suggestions?



I do not know about your exact situation with the STAGE editor, but let me
tell you my encounter with something similar that may help you out.  I was
attempting to MORPH two objects together.  I had created one of them using
the DETAIL editor, saved it, and then used the various tools in the DETAIL
editor to alter it to its final 'morphed' form.  I then went to the STAGE
editor and loaded object one for one frame.  Then I loaded object 2 for
frames 2-25.  I looked at the FIRST and LAST frames and all looked well.
Then I chose ANIMATE to do a wire-frame preview.  What I saw was that, while
my object morphed, it stretched along the X axis by ~30%.  Well, I checked to
see if the final object was larger than the initial one (loaded them on top of
one another in the DETAIL editor).  They were the SAME 'apparent' size.
I put apparent in quotes because this WAS my problem.  I looked at frame
1 of the animation, selected the object, and checked its size.  I then
looked at the final object in frame 25 and checked its size.  THEY were the
SAME.  However, when I looked at them in the DETAIL editor, their Y sizes
were NOT the same.  I guess that the size is taken from the axes or something.

Armed with this knowledge, I went back to the STAGE editor and into the
ACTION editor.  I noticed that my SIZE line for the morphed object was only
defined for FRAME 1.  I selected INFO and the clicked on the object size.
I altered the FINAL frame number to 25 and tried again.  I got the SAME
result as before (morphing and stretching).  Finally, I went to FRAME 25 of
the morphed object's SIZE line and changed the size to the numbers given to
me in the DETAIL editor for the final object.  THIS SOLVED THE PROBLEM!!!

Thus, check all initial and final sizes and play around with the object's
SIZE timeline.

As for the TRACK axis, I had similar problems.  I just deleted my TRACK object
and reloaded it clicking once on the first frame of the animation and once
on the last frame to give it a timeline over the entire animation.


I hope this helps (you and anyone else having problems).

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Imagine Rendering Problems
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 91 19:29:59 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Dave Schreiber)

I've noticed areas of discoloration on objects of mine as well.  I've found
that going into the attributes editor and reseting all the unused attributes
to zero solved my problem (for example, as part of a recent still-life,
I made a flat box with a wooden texture.  The only attributes I set were
color, dithering, and Texture 1.  When I rendered the image, one face of
the box was purple.  I went back and set set the other attributes to zero
explicity;  the box then rendered perfectly).  It appears that there is
a bug in Imagine's `defaults' handling that causes weird things to
happen if attributes aren't explicity set.

Dave Schreiber                                    [e-mail]
                                or (but not both) [e-mail]
"It was fun learning about logic, but I don't see where or when I will ever
use it again."


##

Subject: Crashes
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 91 19:28:32 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Aaron Tucker)

After consulting several friends about IMAGINE crashing, I came to the
astonishing revelation that none of my friends with IMAGINE that had
FPUs were having these horrible lockup problems.

The problem I experience is simple. At random times, the mouse pointer
freezes along with everything else when I press a key or a mouse button.

Anybody using the FPU version having these problems? I don't think it has
to do with chip ram, because I have the same problem whether I am on my
512k-chip 2MB-fast 8MHz A500, or on a friends 1MB-chip 6MB-fast 8MHz A2000.

Steve mentioned that IMPULSE reads these letters. How about some response.
I don't know if they have access to the INTERNET, but I wouldn't mind
corresponding by phone or by mail.

Mention has also been made about IMAGINE v1.0A. I have v1.0. What is the
upgrade policy? Is there a charge? Can I call a BBS and download the new
version? Do I have to send them my original? Any info would be nice. Well,
I might as well call IMPULSE on that matter. But I thought I'd ask since
I am writing now.

A friend of mine mentioned that there is an FTP site where I can get a ton
of DEC objects that are convertable with a program he gave me. Does
anybody know about this site? If you could provide this address along
with a path to the objects, I would be eternally gratefull.

Thank you.

Juan Trevino


##

Subject: Pics
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 91 22:35 CST
From: [e-mail] (Duane Fields)

Hey, for us beginners, why don't you guys post some pics and possibly
project that you have done with Imagine to nasa?

Duane

##

Subject: Crash culprit.
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 01:46:44 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Aaron Tucker)

Thanks for the suggestions about a generic system. Already tried it. I've even
even gone so far as to boot up with a floppy, then IMAGINE. Same problem.
As for the objects at DECWRL, if they've been converted and sent to
ab20.larc.nasa.gov, then I've already got them. Thanks for the information
though. Does anybody know the specific differences between v1.0 and 1.0A?


Juan Trevino
[e-mail]

"There are those that make things happen...
there are those that watch things happen...
and there are those that wonder what happened."


##

Subject: Imagine SW Update Avail. Was RE: Imagine Rendering Problems
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 91 09:34:50 PST
From: [e-mail]

I sent a rather lengthy posting yesterday about rendering problems I was
having in Imagine, with white areas showing up, etc. Well, I guess you
can ignore it. I called Impulse this morning and they told me that there
was a bug in the software that they were well aware of. They said that
they sent out a newsletter last Friday that informed customers of the
problem and that we could send in to get the update of the software at
no cost. He wouldn't tell me the specifics over the phone about how to
get the update. He said I had to wait until I got the newsletter and
follow the instructions.

Thanks to those who responded to my posting  already.

=======================================================================
Sean Schur                        USENET: [e-mail]
Assistant Director Amiga/Media Lab        Compuserve: 70731,1102
Character Animation Department            Plink: OSS259
California Institute of the Arts
=======================================================================

##

Subject: Re: Imagine SW Update Avail. Was RE: Imagine Rendering Problems
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 10:20:39 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Mar 4,  9:34am, [e-mail] wrote:
} Subject: Imagine SW Update Avail. Was RE: Imagine Rendering Problems
}
} I called Impulse this morning and they told me that there
} was a bug in the software that they were well aware of. They said that
} they sent out a newsletter last Friday that informed customers of the
} problem and that we could send in to get the update of the software at
} no cost.

Has anyone received the most recent newsletter from Impulse??

}
}-- End of excerpt from [e-mail]

--ed chadez


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Edward Chadez/System Support Specialist * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 13:46:18 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

From [e-mail] Mon Mar  4 12:54:07 1991

##

Subject: HAM-E, DCTV, ColorBurst comparison.
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 13:51:27 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

>group, I am posting this comparison of the three units as seen in
>AC's TECH For the Commodore AMIGA (Volume 1, Number 1, Page 31).
>Note:  this is an add FROM BlackBelt systems, so they probably picked those
>items which make their product look the best in the comparison.  I take NO
>repsonsibility for the accuracy of this information.  If you know that any
>of this info is incorrect, please post it AND call BlackBelt systems [(800)

Obviously this IS a HAM-E ad and it is sorely biased.  I take no responsibility
to update BlackBelt, but I will inform those in this group of the errors or
discrepancies.



>FEATURE                    |HAME    |DCTV    |CBurst
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>                        |    |    |
>Sharp RGB output standard            | X    |    | X
>Standard IFF viewer compatible            | X    | X    |
>Overlays Amiga screens                | X    | X    | X

What does this mean?  This cannot mean "genlock"-like overlays since
even standard Amiga display modes cannot do this and therefore neither
HAM-E or DCTV can do so.  Drag screens are covered below and thus the above
and below categories are WRONG!  See added categories below.

>Underlays Amiga screens            | X    |    |
>Drags over/under Amiga screens            | X    |    |
>Blit-compatilbe (brushes, BOBS)        | X    |    |

This too is wrong, since DCTV uses identical screens to HAM-E, it too has
this capability.  It is a bit more limited in some ways because each line must
have the "magic-cookie"-like code, but it is entirely possible to use these.
ColorBurst has its own ONBOARD blitter, and copper-like chips and can do its
own blitting in it's own memory.  Again, this category is misleading.

>Free paint and rendering software        | X    | X    | X
>Fully ARexx compatible                | X    |    |
>Free software upgrades forever            | X    |    |

Forever is an aweful long time.  The software for DCTV outshines ANY other
paint software on the Amiga (yes even DPaint).  BlackBelt gives access to
their code so maybe someone will be able to develop such good SW for it.  I
can only hope the ColorBurst software is as good (dream on :-).

>Composite compatible/upgradable        | X    | X    | X
>SVHS compatible/upgradable            | X    |    | X
>PAL machine compatible                | X    |    | X
>Paint loads GIF pixel-for-pixel        | X    |    |
>Works w/all std. Amiga monitors        | X    |    | X

Depends on what we call "standard."  All the 1080/1084 monitors WILL use
DCTV's composite output.  The new 1950 will not because it is a multi-sync
monitor.  The only multi-sync I know of that will accept composite input is
the Mitsubishi Diamondscan.

>Supports "Color Cycling", "Glow"        | X    |    |

ColorBurst supports what they call 24 bit color cycling.  I don't know what
"Glow" is but it would be safe for me to assume that CB will do this as well.

>Uses only your RGB port            | X    |    |

MAST tells me ColorBurst only uses only the RGB port like HAM-E.

>Brush ANIM compatible                | X    |    |

See BOB and blitter comments above, this is wrong as well.

>Single Frame ANIM compatible            | X    | X    | X
>Genlock capability standard            | X    |    | X
>Built-in composite digitizer            |    | X    |
>Image as backdrop playfield            |    |    | X
>Unlimited real time updates            | X    | X    |

The ColorBurst paint program does real-time updates to the 24 bit board.

>RGB, HSV, HSL, CMY palettes            | X    |    |

Any "palette" can be simulated in ColorBurst's 24 bit output.  A palette
is definitively a subset of a larger set.  The 24 bit color is that superset.

>Uses DigiView 4.0 directly            | X    |    |

DCTV doesn't need an outside digitizer, it's internal one puts DigiView
to shame.
I don't know about DigiView specifically, but MAST informs me that the
ColorBurst software will operate directly with some un-named digitizers.

>Full overscan output                | X    | X    | X
>Hires (768) 24-bitr RGB upgradable        | X    |    |

DCTV and ColorBurst come STANDARD with 768x480 (equivalent in apparent
resolution on DCTV) image size.  No upgrad is neccessary.

>Public-access support BBS            | X    |    | X
>Works w/AmigaVision, CanDo...            | X    | X    |
>Double-shielded cables                | X    |    |
>Free UPS ground Shipping            | X    |    |
>UL listed power supply (Safe!)            | X    |    | X
>Toll-free telephone sales line            | X    |    |
>Paint, render 'C' source code free        | X    |    |
>FCC Class B approved (RF-quiet!)        | X    |    |

ColorBurst has just been approved by the FCC.  I do not know what class
it is.

>Already available                | X    |    |

As mentioned, DCTV is available now.
ColorBurst will be available by the end of March.

>True 24-bit output (3 8-bit DACs)        | X    |    | X
>Up to 512, 24-bit color registers        | X    |    |

No registers needed in DCTV or ColorBurst.

>Lowest retail price - ($299.95)        | X    |    |
                        $299    $495    $499


>Hope this helps.

Me too.

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])

##

Subject: Extrude to path problems
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 16:42:56 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

>Question 1: I have successfully created paths in the Stage Editor
>(very simple and intuitive), but am having difficulty in creating
>paths in the Detail Editor to extrude an object along a path.  I
>created an object starting with an axis and adding some points and
>connected them with lines.  I wanted to extrude the object on a
>semi-circular path.  I followed the instructions in the manual that
>described how to make a path (add multiple axes, align the y axes in
>the direction I wanted the path to go, sort the axes, and select MAKE
>PATH).  All seemed to be working well.  A curved line with one axis
>where there had been many now existed on my screen.  I saved the new
>object.  I then selected the object that I wanted to extrude on the
>path and selected EXTRUDE from the menu.  I selected ALONG PATH and
>entered the name of the path in the PATH box and pressed <RETURN>.  I
>selected OK and received the message: Path not found (or something
>like that).  I checked the objects available in the FIND BY REQUESTER
>box and found that my object was names AXIS.1 instead of the name that
>I had given it.  AXIS.1 was indeed the path, so I tried to EXTRUDE using
>the same steps as described above using AXIS.1 instead of the actual
>name of the path.  I received the message: illegal parameters (or
>something like that).  What am I doing wrong?  I tried to use a path I
>had created in the Stage Editor that I had used to create an
>animation.  That did not work either.  Another related question: can I
>use paths created in the Stage editor as extrude paths or do they have
>to be created in the Detail Editor?

>>No you can't use the stage editors paths for extrusion. As for your
>>problems with extrusions, just make sure that the object to be extruded
>>and the extrusion path have distinct names (and don't forget to hit
>>RETURN whenever you fill in a requester (the charcters will capitalize
>>when you do that)

Steve, I make sure to press <RETURN> for everything even if I am
pretty sure I do not have to.  The object and path are two distinct
names.  It might be helpful if you described how you do an extrude to
path.  It is possible the manual has left out some important step or
is misleading?  Does my desciption fit your method of extruding to
path?  I must be doing some little thing wrong.

##

Subject: RE:HAM-E, DCTV, ColorBurst comparison.
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 91 17:05:12 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> >Full overscan output                        | X    | X    | X
> >Hires (768) 24-bitr RGB upgradable        | X    |    |

> DCTV and ColorBurst come STANDARD with 768x480 (equivalent in apparent
> resolution on DCTV) image size.  No upgrad is neccessary.

It is also important to note that both DCTV and ColorBurst are truly 768 pixels
wide whereas the optional resolution expander for HAM-E merely fakes it.
It does this by looking at two adjoining pixels and creating an interpolated
one inbetween them. Although this looks nicer than 368 wide resolution,
claiming 768 wide resolution is a lie.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Impulse Newsletters?
Date:    Mon, 4 Mar 91 19:24 EST
From: "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]>

     I have yet to get ANY newsletters from Impulse.  I sent in my registration
card long ago.... when should I have gotten one?
     Also, anybody knowing about how to get 1.0A that would post such knowledge
would be most kind.
     Lastly, I have yet to get brush wrapping to work on anything other than a
completely flat plane (and that not reliably, either!).  If some kind soul has
time to either send me some objects correctly mapped or to take a look at the
stuff I've got, I'd appreciate it!  I'm getting quite fed up.

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
| -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
| -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
| --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
| Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
\---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/

P.S.  Just got another 4 Megs... up to 2 and 8 now... maybe now I can translate
      the Enterprise deck plans into Imagine!  Wish me luck...

##

Subject: HAM-E, DCTV, ColorBurst comparison.
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 13:51:27 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

    Since there has been a lot of interest in the various "24-bit"
hardware attachments for the Amiga (HAM-E, DCTV, and ColorBurst) in this
group, I am posting this comparison of the three units as seen in
AC's TECH For the Commodore AMIGA (Volume 1, Number 1, Page 31).
Note:  this is an add FROM BlackBelt systems, so they probably picked those
items which make their product look the best in the comparison.  I take NO
repsonsibility for the accuracy of this information.  If you know that any
of this info is incorrect, please post it AND call BlackBelt systems [(800)
TK-AMIGA] and tell them.  Here is the add:

HAM-E

The HAM-E offers every Amiga User two new graphics modes.  It's the most
compatible, least expensive, highest performance way to get high quality,
24-bit graphics images on the computer and monitor system you already own.
Compare these features before you buy a graphics expander:


FEATURE                    |HAME    |DCTV    |CBurst
-----------------------------------------------------------------
                    |    |    |
Sharp RGB output standard        | X    |    | X
Standard IFF viewer compatible        | X    | X    |
Overlays Amiga screens            | X    | X    | X
Underlays Amiga screens            | X    |    |
Drags over/under Amiga screens        | X    |    |
Blit-compatilbe (brushes, BOBS)        | X    |    |
Free paint and rendering software    | X    | X    | X
Fully ARexx compatible            | X    |    |
Free software upgrades forever        | X    |    |
Composite compatible/upgradable        | X    | X    | X
SVHS compatible/upgradable        | X    |    | X
PAL machine compatible            | X    |    | X
Paint loads GIF pixel-for-pixel        | X    |    |
Works w/all std. Amiga monitors        | X    |    | X
Supports "Color Cycling", "Glow"    | X    |    |
Uses only your RGB port            | X    |    |
Brush ANIM compatible            | X    |    |
Single Frame ANIM compatible        | X    | X    | X
Genlock capability standard        | X    |    | X
Built-in composite digitizer        |    | X    |
Image as backdrop playfield        |    |    | X
Unlimited real time updates        | X    | X    |
RGB, HSV, HSL, CMY palettes        | X    |    |
Uses DigiView 4.0 directly        | X    |    |
Full overscan output            | X    | X    | X
Hires (768) 24-bitr RGB upgradable    | X    |    |
Public-access support BBS        | X    |    | X
Works w/AmigaVision, CanDo...        | X    | X    |
Double-shielded cables            | X    |    |
Free UPS ground Shipping        | X    |    |
UL listed power supply (Safe!)        | X    |    | X
Toll-free telephone sales line        | X    |    |
Paint, render 'C' source code free    | X    |    |
FCC Class B approved (RF-quiet!)    | X    |    |
Already available            | X    |    |
True 24-bit output (3 8-bit DACs)    | X    |    | X
Up to 512, 24-bit color registers    | X    |    |
Lowest retail price - ($299.95)        | X    |    |


As you can see, some of this is out of date already (some of you HAVE
DCTV's, so it is out now.

Hope this helps.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

BTW, I have my HAM-E on order (used, actually).

##

Subject: Re: LightWave --> Imagine
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 19:03:42 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

I put the GIFs of AdInfinitum and PencilCity in ab20.  Were there any other
pics you wanted (sorry, I have been swamped lately with school and lost your
last letter).

BTW, when can I get the other 24 bit files? (ColorBurst maybe by April 1)

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: Re: rendering problems
Date: 04 Mar 91 20:53:42 EST
From: Rick Rodriguez <[e-mail]>

Sorry, Steve.  Mike doesn't check onto Compuserve.  The best I can do
is relay messages.  FYI, rendering problems WERE bugs and have been
SQUASHED in 1.0A.
--Rick


##


Subject: RE:HAM-E, DCTV, ColorBurst comparison.
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 17:53:17 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

In a message From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>


>> >Full overscan output                        | X    | X    | X
>> >Hires (768) 24-bitr RGB upgradable        | X    |    |
>
>> DCTV and ColorBurst come STANDARD with 768x480 (equivalent in apparent
>> resolution on DCTV) image size.  No upgrad is neccessary.
>
>It is also important to note that both DCTV and ColorBurst are truly 768 pixels
>wide whereas the optional resolution expander for HAM-E merely fakes it.
>It does this by looking at two adjoining pixels and creating an interpolated
>one inbetween them. Although this looks nicer than 368 wide resolution,
>claiming 768 wide resolution is a lie.

Well, that's true for ColorBurst, but the technique used in DCTV is very
similar to HAM-E's technique for the 768 pixel wide display.  DCTV has what
can be termed an "apparent" horizontal resolution of 768 pixels, but it is
in actuality an "NTSC data stream" (in the words of Digital Creations) and
not actual pixels.  Actually this represents a bit of an advantage on high
resolution screen which would show the individual pixels and detract from
the image.  I personally don't thing the NTSC limitation imposed on DCTV is
the best point to do this "smearing" (my word no one elses) but it looks
very good nevertheless.  It appears that a similar technique is being employed
in some new VGA cards for MS-sloth machines that takes pixel values and
smooths the image between them as it is sent to the monitor to increase the
apparent resolution.  This might be added to the 24 bit boards, but might
not be necessary, especially if you aren't sending it to a high resolution
monitor (a 1084 vice a 1950).

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: newsletter & brush mapping
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 91 08:38:54 EST
From: John J. Rosner <[e-mail]>

"Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]> writes:

>     I have yet to get ANY newsletters from Impulse.  I sent in my registration
>card long ago.... when should I have gotten one?

I believe I received one a long time ago, and I think that had something to do
with a product anouncement.

> Lastly, I have yet to get brush wrapping to work on anything other than a
>completely flat plane (and that not reliably, either!).

Brush mapping on something like a sphere is straightforward if you leave the
axis in the center of the sphere and don't resize the axis.

Good Luck,

John Rosner


##

Subject: rendering rocket "thrust"
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 91 13:53:58 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

Steve Webb writes:
>      Try and make some "Thrust"  8)  What I mean is the engine exaust that is
> half see-through, and half not.  I figured it out, but it looks cheezy.
>      My solution was to make a half-transparent object in the shape of the
> thrust, and make about 20 copies of it, each one a bit smaller than the last.
> stick them all inside each other, and you have an object that looks like it
> is denser in the middle than the edges, but not quite what I had expected.
> Perhaps it could be possible to make an attribute of "Fog" or something.
> I know that the applications are kinda' limited to making thrust, or a neon
> glow, or something, but WHAT'S A SPACESHIP WITHOUT THRUST?!?!?

In Lightwave, you can specify three different levels of edge opacity
(clear, normal, and opaque). By creating a semi transparent object with
clear edges, you can create glows for all sorts of things like laser
beams, rocket exhaust, planetary atmosphere, neon, etc. On the flip side,
a reasonable approximation of glass can be made using opaque edges
with an almost totally transparent surface. I would reccommend writing
Impluse and requesting this kind of edge control in their next release.
Actually, the applications for this are nearly endless.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: RE:HAM-E, DCTV, ColorBurst comparison.
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 91 15:26:16 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

Claming that Ham-E is 768 wide is such crap.  It is a low-res (~380) pic that
has been scaled by 2 and then anti-aliased.  Now granted it does this in
real-time thanks to the costly little math chip (I don't know if it is extra
but I assume it is), it still isn't the same as a true 768 screen.  This
isn't certainly an improvement of the lowres stuff but it will suffer from
the side effects of antialiasing, mainly a softening of the image.

The Ham-E seems like a nice inexpensive solution (kludge), however their
marketing (lying) really annoys me and I will be taking a long look at the
ColorBurst board which sounds assome!

David
[e-mail]

ps. make that .. "This _is_ certainly an improvement of...."

##

Subject: DCTV technique for color
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 91 15:34:27 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

One thing I noticed about DCTV is  that unlike Ham-E that combines the
pixel information from two pixels into one, DCTV seems to work in a manner
that mimics how NTSC deals with color.  It appears that the information for
a pixel in DCTV is a shift in color compared to the last color.  IF this is
how it works, you WILL experience problems between severe color shifts, such
as red to blue.

However, the work I have done and displayed on DCTV has looked stunning!
(animated)

Dave
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: DCTV technique for color
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 00:37:08 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

Actually the changes from "pixel" to "pixel" in DCTV are in a different way
altogether than RGB, but I agree that in practice some extreme color changes
suck (black to white is an extreme but good example).  I don't quite understand
the actual parameters they vary (I think Y-C or VIR or some such letter deal),
but the results are impressive.  I kind of wish C= would include the DCTV
hardware in the Amiga itself to shut up anyone who thinks the Amiga video
is outdated.  The memory it uses wouldn't put any more stress on the system
and the picture would be mouth-watering for an out-of-the-box video display.

In any case, I hope to have ColorBurst by the first of April.

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: Fun mapping trick!
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 91 06:43:36 EST
From: [e-mail]

This was way-cool! Try it.

Get an object. A sphere will do, but whatever you want.

FLAT map a brush onto it. Make sure the brush Y axis is bigger than the
object, make sure the object just fits in the positive x positive z quadrant.

Go to "transform axis" in the brush requestor, select "size", then write down
the x & z scalings.

Make a plane. Map the same brush on it. Use transform to get the same size.
make sure the plane's size is at least as large as the brush.

Go to the stage editor.

Put the object DIRECTLY behind the plane. Orientation and position are
critical- you want the brush maps to line up. [They're the same size.].
Put the camera on a 45 degree view so you don't have a dead on shot.

Make a path that moves the object straight THROUGH the plane, for about 20
frames.

Animate it!

Here's what you'll see. You'll see a flat picture slowly take on a three-d
form, "extruding" exself into a third dimension. The join between plane
and object is indetectable because the brush maps are identical.

This effect is REALLY cool, though you have to be careful to line everything
up right. Use  "transform" to set position and orientation of the
objects and their maps exactly if you're having trouble.

You can render this in scanline- it doesn't need trace.


You could make a room with a framed picture (I have a REALLY nice picture
frame) with a picture of something on it. Camera moves to an oblique view,
zooms in a little, picture starts "extruding." Maybe out a little, then back,
then out then back, then finally, the object finally makes it all the way
out (and the picture behind has a new brush map without the object!). Then
the released thing (whatever!) could explore the "Real World". An idea. Run
with it if you like, post how it goes.

Have fun!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: Surface Master review
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 09:47:27 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

Surface Master for IMAGINE by Louis Markoya

I received my copy of Surface Master on Monday and within minutes it paid for
itself in time saved and frustration avoided.  Unless you are a master Turbo
and/or Imagine user, this program will save you hours (days, months, years?)
of experimentation.

For those of you who might not have read the initial advertisement
posted last week, Surface Master is described as "a comprehensive
collection of Attribute and Texture settings which allows you to
master your renderings and achieve professional results."  The
software makes good on the promise.

I am a novice 3D modeling, Imagine, and Amiga user (bought my 3000 at
the end of October). Within ten minutes I created an animation with a
gorgeous wood grain chesspiece and four reflective spheres with
varying reflection values on a blue highly reflective plane.  I have
been concentrating my time on just learning how to set the basic
attributes (to do things like glass, chrome, etc).  I thought that
things like texture mapping would have to wait.  Well, I loaded up
Surface Master, wrote down the values for the wood texture of a
Surface Master object (textures, unlike attributes, cannot be loaded
directly because they are not saved in the same way) and applied these
values to my chesspiece.  I was astounded at the quality of the
rendered image.

The first thing that struck me was the prompt arrival of the software.
I sent in a money order last week and received my copy on Monday.

The software has a simple program that consists of two levels of
menus.  The first contains a matrix of windows with attributes and
textures that correspond to the ones found in the Imagine Attribute
requestor.  Click on an attribute or texture and next level menu
appears with 4 sets of 4 objects (spheres or cubes) rendered with
various settings for that attribute or texture.  Sometimes a window
will have several attributes described.  Each object has a value
assigned to it (R,G,and B values or a single value) that
you can write down on paper.  In most cases you do not have to; the
objects that appear in the Surface Master menus come in Surface Master
directories.  When you are working in Imagine, simply load in the
object or the attribute from the Surface Master directory.  Markoya
used them to create the Menu screens.  To get the texture values, load
in the objects with the texture values you want, invoke the Attribute
requestor for the object, choose texture, and write down the values.

Just one texture, wood, is worth the price of the package.  Surface
Master includes 16 different samples of wood grain combined with
linear, random and radiance(?).  In addition, there are 16 samples of
different types of wood (mahogony, ash, pine, oak, zebrawood, etc.).
In a few minutes, without having to puzzle over Imagine
documentation (which usually ends up providing little or no help), I
understood how to use the linear texture to create my wooden chesspiece.

For the color attribute, Surface Master includes a color wheel of
spheres.  Load these spheres individually as objects to your
rendering project or the attributes associated with them.  Very
helpful in getting just the right color for an object without having
to diddle around (or at least get a close approximation).

Color and wood are only a few examples.

Finally, the documentation.  The manual is very small, but clearly and
thoroughly presented.  Each attribute and texture is described in
detail.  Impulse could learn alot about documentation from this
manual.  It packed so much information in such a small space that I
need to go back and read it several times to really get the meat of it
(mostly I was just eager to try out the software).  From many it will
probably become a standard text on Imagine attributes and textures.

And all for just $30.  Amazing...

My hats off to Louis Markoya.  I hope that he is going to continue to enhance
Surface Master.  I would love to see a disk of objects and other attributes.
Maybe an entire disk concentrating on reflection or chrome.  If he has more
Imagine-related software coming out, put me on the top of the list.

I do have one complaint.  It comes with what appears to be a projector program.
But it is not documented and I cannot figure out how it works.  If anyone
knows how to contact Louis, please pass this on.

Rich Nollman

##

Subject: Re:  Surface Master review
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 08:15:58 MST
From: [e-mail] (Marvin Landis)

>  Glowing review of Surface Master omitted <

> I do have one complaint.  It comes with what appears to be a projector program
> But it is not documented and I cannot figure out how it works.  If anyone
> knows how to contact Louis, please pass this on.
>
> Rich Nollman

Just a quick comment.  Projector is the freely distributable player program
for the product "The Director".  Louis wrote the Surface Master program with
"The Director" and so to run the program you need the Projector program.  You
really can't do anything with it unless you have other compiled Director
programs.  So there is really no need for documentation, it is just a player
program.

Marvin

PS. Thanks for the review.  I have known Louis through PeopleLink (and met
    him at AmiExpo a couple years ago), and have always admired his work.
    My order for Surface Master is in the mail.

##

Subject: Camera Focal Length
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 10:36:57 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

I discovered (it was in the documentation clearly presented)
that I could change the focal length of the camera by changing the size
attribute in the Action Script for the camera.  The X/Y ratio controls the
focal length of the camera.  A larger X value creates a wide-angle effect while
a larger Y value creates a telephoto effect.  I was impressed.

I was wondering if the Z value has any effect on the camera lens.  I tried
several different settings with no discernable change.  Any comments?

I tried to change the focal length for a specific range of frames
within an animation, but every time I set new values for X and Y, the
values changed for all the frames.  I tried breaking the ranges up by
breaking up the time line into sets of frames (1-10; 11-20; 21-30).
No dice. Has anyone been successful in using different focal lengths
in the same script?

Finally, I discovered something that surprised me.  I had been under
the impression that if the camera is outside the world (beyond 8000 on
any axis) that the scene would not render correctly.  I had some
instances in my first renderings of the screen being black (dark
gray).  An experienced Imagine user told me that my problem was that
my camera was outside the world and when it sent a ray out, it looked
for the end of the world.  Since it was already outside the world to
begin with, all rays were recorded as blank (null).  I scaled down my
scene and located my camera inside the world and the scene rendered
fine (my first successful rendering).  A few days ago I discovered
that placing my camera and lights outside the world rendered fine.  Has anyone
had experience with the camera placed outside the 8000x8000x8000 limit of
the world?

##

Subject: Re: Surface Master review
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 91 08:22:46 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

I may appear to be really out of it, but could someone kindly post the
address to purchase Surface Master ("please??") ?

It looks like something I could REALLY use.

Thank you very much.
--ed

amiga500 user, soon to be an amiga 2500/3000 (when the dough comes in)

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Edward Chadez/System Support Specialist * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Image Flicker Problem
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 10:58:23 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

Some time ago, several people mentioned that their animations
flickered back and forth.  They mentioned that it was a problem in
Turbo that seems not to have been fixed in Imagine.  I had not gotten
to the point where I had any animations successfully rendered to be
concerned.  Now I am.  I did not notice it on my last project (maybe
because I was so happy with the results).

In my latest 30-frame animation, I had four spheres and a chesspiece
on a plane in space.  The camera moves in an open path around over the
chesspiece and down along the front of the four spheres.  The
animation moves back and forth as if it were exposed by a real camera
being hand held by an unsteady hand.  I have no idea what is going on,
but it ruins the affect of the animation.  I wonder if the fact that
the camera is moving on a path causes it to shudder (as if Imagine was
simulating the real shudder of a hand-held moving camera).  But I
aligned the camera to the chesspiece (frames 1 -15) and the spheres
(16-30) so the camera should rotate as it goes by.  Could that be the
problem.  I am not sure if the same thing happens in scanline.  I will
try two things: first a scanline rendering and then moving the objects
instead of the camera to see if the flicker is still there.

Is this flicker a chronic Turbo/Imagine problem?  If so, has it been
addressed by Impulse?

##

Subject: Surface Master add
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 11:27:05 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

I am reposting this for anyone who might not have seen the add or misplaced
it.

------
quote


Introducing "Surface Master" for IMAGINE by Louis Markoya: a
comprehensive collection of Attribute and Texture settings which
allows you to master your renderings and achieve professional results.

The Surface Master package comes with a detailed manual explaining all
Attribute and Texture parameters, effects and how to animate
those  effects plus hints and tips on special applications. A disk
containing  IFF pictures illustrates each Attribute and Texture
setting. All  objects and many attribute files are included.

Attributes for many surface qualities like Chrome, Glass, Gold,
Brass, Diamond, Emerald, etc., are included and explained. Proper
Indexes of Refraction  and custom settings are used for the best
results in different Global  situations. In addition to these, many
other preset examples explore  the  realm of possibilities within
IMAGINE.

Texture variables will be explained as well, with a wide array of each
Texture's possibilities presented. For Example, Wood, has a matrix of
settings to explore all of its parameters, and separate settings for
Pine, Oak, Zebrawood etc.. Pictures illustrate the wide array of all
effects possible. The actual objects rendered are included. Settings
and the discussion of their variation are covered in the manual.
Textures can be animated and hints for the best settings are offered.
The effects of moving the axis and the interaction of object size to
Texture settings are explained.

Surface Master is of great value to both the novice and pro,
eliminating the struggle to achieve those special results. Those
knowledgeable of his work are fully aware of his abilities, especially
in Turbo Silver and IMAGINE. Now he shares many of his "secrets". The
Surface Master package is available for $30.00 only through direct
mail from Louis.

Send Bank Check or Money Order to;*

Surface Master
Computer Imagery
49 Walnut Ave.
Shelton, CT 06484

Make checks payable to Louis Markoya

* Personal checks accepted, but shipment will be delayed for check
clearance.

Surface Master for IMAGINE will ship approximately FEB. 28, 1991
----

end of quote.

To explain this a little further, Surface Master is made up of a full
disk of some different parts:
-There's a Projector (tm Right Answers Grouop) sequence of screen shots
showing all the various attributes and textures available on the disk,
such as a screen full of wood spheres of different kinds of woods. I don't
remember offhand how many screen shots but at least a dozen.
-There's a directory full of objects from which all those screen shots
were made. Say you wanted to use Zebra wood on one of your objects in a
rendering. You'd load the zebra wood object (which you could see in the
slide show) into Imagne, select it and then select the attributes
requester, jot down the wood settings, then select your own object and
punch in those same settings to get that same wood.
-There's a directory full of attribute settings for which you do not need
to load in Louis' objects nor copy down any settings. These attributes
can be loaded directly into the attribute requester and applied directly
to your own object - without interfacing at all with the "textures" that
come with Imagine.  Stainless Steel, Chrome, Emerald, Diamond, etc. would
be examples of attributes which can be loaded in right from disk without
textures, whereas Woods, Dots, Grids, Checks and other texture effects
require the extra step of loading in Louis' object and copying down and
then re-entering the textures for your own objects.

The beauty of this disk is that Louis has done all the hard work. You
don't have to sit there trying to figure out how to make something look
like chrome or like ivory. All the settings are on the disk in one of
the two forms described above along with pictures of them all.

So it's a lot more than just a disk full of pretty pictures or numbers
painted on the screen.

disclaimer: Louis Markoya is a friend of mine and he's marketing this
product on his own and I just want people to know that it exists. I
get no "cut" from the money he makes from it.



Harv Laser                                      {anywhere}!crash!hrlaser
"Park and lock it.  Not responsible."           People/Link: CBM*HARV



##

Subject: Re:  Image Flicker Problem
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 13:39:22 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

** Description of flicker problem omitted **

What you describe is something that I noticed on one of my animations which
had a moving camera.  In that animation I had a camera follow a circular
path over 90 degrees (staying in one plane) from the side of a building to
its front while keeping the camera tracked on the building.  What I saw in
solid model and/or trace (also in wire frame BUT I did not see it there as
is was less obvious on my objects than on the ground) was that the HORIZON,
as defined by the ground, seemed to 'bob' up and down a few pixels, as though
my camera was following a sinusoidal wave.  I was not able to fix that
problem (I tried for a while and then moved on to other things), but I have
some suggestions as to its origin and solution in Imagine.

My first guess is that your path does not have enough points and that the
wobbling your camera is experiencing is from a poor interpolation by imagine
of the 'tween points.  I do NOT think that this is the "flicker" problem
mentioned earlier (it is defintely NOT the one I described a while back for
rough objects in TS and Imagine).  Possible solutions include using more
points to make a 'smoother' path, checking the Z values of all your path
points to see that they are the same, and using HINGE instead of a curved
path.  Give the camera a linear path but HINGE it to an axis within the group
of objects.  This last suggestion gives you less freedom over camera movement,
so it is probably a last alternative.

Hope this helps.  If I misinterpreted your problem let me know.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Problem with ALTITUDE MAPPING.
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 13:52:19 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

    I decided to play around with ALTITUDE mapping last night.  I had this
grand idea of making a REALISTIC orange peel.  I went into DPaint III and
created a 11-pixel diameter point made up of concentric grey shaded solid
disks with black in the center and light grey on the outside (thus a 'blending'
of shades from black to white) ALL on a white background.  I saved this as
a brush and then made and ordered array of these dots all over a 704x480 image.
I then went to IMAGINE and the DETAIL editor and added a primative plane of
1000x1000 (100x100 sections) to give the plane enough points to deform.
I made it orange and chose BRUSH 1, loaded the brush, and chose altitude map.
I SIZED the Y axis of the BRUSH box to be relatively small (so the dimples
would not be too deep) and saved it.  I went to the STAGE editor and added
this object and a light source.  I positioned the camera to see the entire
object.  In the PROJECT editor I chose SCANLINE and rendered.

UNFORTUNATELY, even with 5.5 Megs of RAM, I got the message "Not enough RAM
to load BRUSH ...".  Well, I decided then to start SIMPLE.  I went back to
DPaint III and made a 320x200 image which consisted of a white plane with a
series of concentric grey disks (dark in the middle again) which was about
1/3 the diameter of the screen (the largest one).  I thought I'd create a
"BLACK HOLE" effect (YES, I know I can do this with MAGNETISM, but I eventually
want an orange peel, so I decided to try this anyway).  I then added a
100x100 (10x10 slices) plane in the detail editor and chose BRUSH 1, added
my brush, moved the BRUSH axis so that the upper right quadrant covered the
object, sized it appropriately, chose ALTITUDE MAP, and saved it.
I loaded this into the STAGE editor, positioned the camera obliquely to the
plane (I had sized the Y-depth of the BRUSH axis to be ~1/2 the width of the
plane, so the PIT should be pretty deep.  I hoped that the oblique angle would
allow me to see the ident from both 'sides').  When I rendered it, ALL I got
was a plane with a colored DISK in it.  I DID check to see if I had chosen
ALTITUDE (I DID).

Anyone have success with ALTITUDE mapping??  Please give me the GORY details
as to how you did it, okay?


Thanks,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Problem with ALTITUDE MAPPING.
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 91 14:53:20 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

>     I decided to play around with ALTITUDE mapping last night.  I had this
> grand idea of making a REALISTIC orange peel.

I know this isn't an answer to your question but unless you plan on getting
really close to that orange with the camera, I highly reccommend using
bump mapping rather than altitude. The additional polygon detail required
by altitude mapping is totally unnecessary when bump mapping will give the
same visual result (minus the pits in the silohette which aren't noticeable
anyway).
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Surface Master, Questions On it
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 91 16:10:24 EST
From: Sandy Antunes <[e-mail]>

Hi folks!
Well, given the rave review for Surface Master, I had a request.
Could someone who has bought it post a list of all the textures
it offers?  I'm trying to decide on if I will use it enough,
since it sounds so well designed, so at this point it is a
question of which textures it has.  There has been mention of
Crystal, Emerald, Stainless Steel, Chrome, a few more, plus
"many others"... a full list would clinch the decision for me
(since $30 is a lot of money to me for, say, 5 textures I'd
use, but a great deal for 20 textures I like...)
     thanks!                             sandy
------------
Sandy Antunes   "the Waupelani Kid" 'cause that's where I live...
[e-mail]            Penn State Astronomy Dept
NOTE-this is a new address as of 3/91!  Please adjust accordingly
------------ this is my new .sig... dull, isn't it! ------------

##

Subject: Help with mirrored surfaces
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 91 09:41:59 PST
From: serene!cbmami.uucp![e-mail] (Jason Goldberg)

     I am pretty new to Imagine, and I am trying to render a mirrored
sphere.  The attributes I have played with for the mirror are Color Black
with a high reflectivness, and a low filter.  I have succeeded in getting
good reflections, and I know that if my reflect value is too high that I
won't be able to see it.  What I can't seem to do is create that silvery
mirror reflection, I guess I am looking for a little more chrome in my
mirror (an example of setting for Chrome would be nice too...).  Does
anyone have some numbers that they could through my way?
     I just sent for Image Master, yesterday and I suspect that it will
solve most of my troubles when I recieve it.

Thanks,

-Jason-

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Goldberg                UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason
Del Mar, CA

##

Subject: A question or two
Date:     Wed, 6 Mar 1991 09:58:42 -0500
From: cbmtor![e-mail] (Caleb J. Howard (Product Support))

Hello there, virtual people
Salutations, greetings, et cetera.
I have a 2500 with a 2630 accellerator modified by having a 50MHz 882
stuck on it.  My problem has become less tolerable since I started working
with more complex scenes.  Specifically, I cannot render in any mode other
than full trace.  Even considering the performance improvment due to the
faster co-processor, this results in LONG waits just to get an idea of how
close I am to my desired results.  A scanline preview would make my life
so much speedier.  Does the head impulse honcho really read this?  can he
offer any suggestions why my system should hang in any mode other than
full trace mode?  Any assistance would be gratefully acknowledged.
    On to my second query...
I don't have ftp access, but am very interested in trading objects with all
you talented people.  I have a Klein Bottle that is reasonably effective.
What I really want is the NCC-1701-A object and any other SF related stuff.
Can I arrange to get objects mailed to me?  Is anyone interested in the Klein
jar?  I'm also working on a number of operational optical devices (a telescope
for example).  Any interest there?
Eagerly anticipating capitulatory responces.
-caleb


##

Subject: Sharing data
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 91 22:53 CST
From: [e-mail] (Duane Fields)

Could we possibly designate some place that we could all upload/dload
objects, textures, brushes for wrapping, attributes, etc??

Duane
Duane

##

Subject: Upload/Download objects
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 91 22:10:55 mst
From: steven lee webb <[e-mail]>

Duane Fields writes:

>Could we possibly designate some place that we could all upload/dload
>objets, textures. brushes for wrapping, attributes, etc??

The BIG place (as far as I know is ab20 at 128.155.23.64)
The directory is: /incoming/amiga/3d/Imagine
Perhaps you can get some brushes to wrap from some of the picture dirs there.

Anyone know where I can get a digitized pic of marble?

I've been trying to fond some, but they are all comercial...

I was thinking of getting DCTV soon, and if I do, I'll try and make some
with their paint prog...  (HAVE YOU SEEN IT, IT LOOKS GREAT!! - KINDA A
TAKE-OFF OF A QUANTEL PAINT-BOX)

Trace on, dudes!

     _________
    /  ______/\
   /  /\_____\/    ------------------------------------------------
  /_____   /\      A seminar on time travel will be held a week ago
 _\____/  / /      ------------------------------------------------
/________/ /
\________\/teven Webb  Reply to: [e-mail]
           A Computer Science Major @ Colorado State University
     "Spelling" is NOT a prerequsite for a degree in Computer Science!
            I have an amiga 500 with 5MEGS RAM, and a 50MEG HD.
                   [why are you looking at me so funny?]
                     (Yes, I HAVE voided my warranty!)


##

Subject: Rich Nollman's extrude question
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 91 13:23:21 EST
From: [e-mail]

From S. Menzies, relayed through me-

------------------------------
Richard, you're using the wrong path. For extrusions you must use
an "add lines" path and not the spline path. Same goes for using
the F/X "grow. Sorry, I must have missread you inital post. If you
have further problems, just ask (but I think your proceedure is OK).
cya -stephen

------------------------------

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: Surface Master Attributes and Textures
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 91 12:43:44 EST
From: Richard Nollman <[e-mail]>

In response to a request to post the attributes and textures covered in the
Surface Master software, I post the following:

Spheres and cubes are rendered in color on menu screens (very nice)
with libraries of objects, attributes and textures included in the
package.  Each of the following categories displayed on a submenu screen:

Reflect/Filter   4 x 4 matrix of spheres with RGB and intensity values
Dithering/Roughness 2 x 4 matrix of spheres with intensity values (50-225)
Specular/Hardness   2 x 4 matrix of spheres with intensity values (50-225)
Color    49 colored spheres in a color wheel;9 spheres in grayscale
Shininess  3 x 4 matrix of spheres with shininess, filter, and index of
           refraction values
Index of Refraction 3 x 3 matrix of spheres with intensity values (1-3.4)
Linear/Radial (textures)  4 x 3 matrix of spheres with transition width
                          and reflect/filter RGB values
Checks/Angular (textures) 4 x 3 matrix of spheres with angular, checksize,
                          and reflect/filter RGB values
Grid/Dots (textures)  4 x 4 matrix of cubes with gridsize, reflect/filter RGB,
                      and dot spacing values
Bricks (texture)  4 x 4 matrix of cubes with XYZ shift, Y shift with Z value,
                  Z shift with Y value, and reflect/filter RGB values.
Disturbed (texture)  4 x 4 matrix of spheres with amount, wavelength, X
                     separation, and small values
Wood (texture)  4 x 4 matrix of spheres with ring spacing, exponent, variation
                and random seed values
Preset Materials    4 jewels (diamond, ruby, saphire, and emerald) and 12
                    spheres (glass, crystal, water, quartz, steel, pewter,
                    plastic, ivory, chrome, gold, brass, and copper)
Woods    12 spheres with the following types of wood: birch, mahogany, cherry
         oak, pine, red cedar, zebra wood, red mahogany, black walnut, ash
         walnut and tulip (? - can't read my own writing)
Combos   16 cube assortment demonstrating mixed textures including:
         wood/grid, grid/wood, linear/disturb, bricks/linear, bricks/wood,
         and bricks/linear

That's the list.  Have fun with it (I sure am).  Just want to mention that I
do not even know Louis Markoya so I am just posting this as a satisfied
customer.

Rich Nollman

##

Subject: Impulse Newsletter?
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 91 11:24:18 PST
From: [e-mail]

Has anyone received the mythical newsletter that is supposed to tell
how to get the newest update of Imagine. When I called them they
said they had sent it out over a week ago. Surely if this is the
case SOMEONE would have received it by now.

=======================================================================
Sean Schur                        USENET: [e-mail]
Assistant Director Amiga/Media Lab        Compuserve: 70731,1102
Character Animation Department            Plink: OSS259
California Institute of the Arts
=======================================================================

##

Subject: Problems with EXPLODE...
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 91 14:53:45 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

    Gee, it seems lately that all I have is problems, doesn't it?  I
decided to 'play around with' the EXPLODE F/X last night.  I have a grouped
object consisting of 5 parts (head, neck, torso, waist, pelvis) which I
wanted to explode over 25 frames.  I added it to the stage editor with a
light source, added a 25-frame F/X EXPLODE line and chose SPHERICAL (X axis).
I previewed using ANIMATE and noticed that ONLY the HEAD exploded outward
like I wanted.  The points of the rest of the body just moved away slowly from
the center of the object.  Thus, it looked like the head exploded perfectly
while the rest of the body drifted slowly away, spread out a little, and
got compacted.

    I looked at the object in the DETAIL editor and noticed that the
parent object was the Head and that the axis was in the center of the head.
I thought... "Maybe EXPLODE will not work with the children objects in a
group".  I Ungrouped the objects, selected each object and JOIN/MERGED them
into a single object.  When I exploded this one, I got the SAME effect
described above.  I re-entered the DETAIL editor and moved the AXIS to the
center of the object.  This time the TORSO exploded the way I wanted but
the waist, pelvis, neck, and head did NOT.  I tried RADIAL explosion and
Y axis (the axis down the length of my object is Y).  NO change.  I even
made the AXIS size equal to the entire object and placed it at the bottom
of it (just below the pelvis).  In this case, the Pelvis exploded correctly
but the rest of the body 'compacted' as above.


Question:  How do I get a comples object which is NOT spherically symmetric
to explode 'uniformly' away from the central axis (say Y in this case)?
I COULD load each object in separately, explode each from its own axis, and
get a real mess, but I should NOT HAVE to do this, right?

Finally, I chose the explode effect for FRAMES 1-25.  When I LOOKED at the
wire-frame representation of my originally 'smooth' object (most of the parts
were made with SPIN/SWEEP), all the TRIANGLES were already starting to come
off the object.  It looked like a cat which just touched a light socket and
all its hair is standing on end.  Do I have to put the original object in
Frame 1 and then EXPLODE it from 2-25 to get it to look right?  Any help would
be appreciated.  I plan to play with it some more tonight.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Problem with ALTITUDE MAPPING.
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 91 14:37:31 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

Mark Thompson writes...

>I know this isn't an answer to your question but unless you plan on getting
>really close to that orange with the camera, I highly reccommend using
>bump mapping rather than altitude. The additional polygon detail required
>by altitude mapping is totally unnecessary when bump mapping will give the
>same visual result (minus the pits in the silohette which aren't noticeable
>anyway).


Okay, I've got a stupid question (it has been a long time since I played with
these features).  Isn't BUMP mapping accomplished by using the ROUGHNESS
attribute?  If so, this is one of those things in TS and Imagine that I
avoid like the plague.  As you may recall, I posted stuff about the problems
with ANIMATING any object which is ROUGH.  You get a different roughened surface
for each frame, giving the illusion of thousands of tiny pepper-colored insects
crawling over the surface.  This not only increases the ANIM size but it is
unpleasant to the eye and also shows up in any reflective surface which
contains an image of the object.  If BUMP mapping is NOT ROUGHNESS, please
enlighten me.

Scott
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Bump Mapping
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 91 22:48:30 -0500
From: Udo K Schuermann <[e-mail]>

> Mark Thompson writes...
>>
>>The additional polygon detail required
>>by altitude mapping is totally unnecessary when bump mapping will give the
>>same visual result (minus the pits in the silohette which aren't noticeable
>>anyway).

"Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]> writes:
> Isn't BUMP mapping accomplished by using the ROUGHNESS attribute?

It appears that there is some confusion about Bump mapping and Altitude
mapping.  Let's see if this clears it up:
    Imagine's "Altitude Map" *IS* bump mapping.  It involves using
an IFF picture to specify at which locations the surface normals are
altered.  This does not create an actual pitted surface, or actual 3D
alterations, but it does create a good illusion of these.  It works
best on very small alterations, such as the pits in an orange peel.
Don't expect good results with it, trying "stamp" your big initials
into an object, and don't even try to grow "spikes" out of the object
using this technique.

As Altitude Maps (Bump Maps) use your own IFF creations, there is none
of the uncontrolled randomness that you get with Roughness.  They do
not require any "additional polygon detail," either.

 ._.  Udo Schuermann        And now for something completely different:
 ( )  [e-mail]    An Iraqi dictator without his underpants.

##

Subject: Re: Problems with EXPLODE...
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 91 07:41:25 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdmin)

:Finally, I chose the explode effect for FRAMES 1-25.  When I LOOKED at the
:wire-frame representation of my originally 'smooth' object (most of the parts
:were made with SPIN/SWEEP), all the TRIANGLES were already starting to come
:off the object.  It looked like a cat which just touched a light socket and
:all its hair is standing on end.  Do I have to put the original object in
:Frame 1 and then EXPLODE it from 2-25 to get it to look right?  Any help would
:be appreciated.  I plan to play with it some more tonight.
:
:Scott Sutherland
:[e-mail]

I don't have any answers for you on the explode FX because I haven't played
with it yet but in most cases, if you want frame 1 to be exactly as you
position it originally and then you want to do an effect on the rest of the
frames, then yes, you must setup the object in frame 1 and do the effect
in frames 2- whatever.

-- Bob

InterNet: [e-mail]            | Raven Enterprises
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  Home #: 908/560-7353                   | 908/271-8878


##

Subject: Re: Problem with ALTITUDE MAPPING.
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 91 07:37:30 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdmin)

:Okay, I've got a stupid question (it has been a long time since I played with
:these features).  Isn't BUMP mapping accomplished by using the ROUGHNESS
:attribute?  If so, this is one of those things in TS and Imagine that I
:avoid like the plague.  As you may recall, I posted stuff about the problems
:with ANIMATING any object which is ROUGH.  You get a different roughened surface
:for each frame, giving the illusion of thousands of tiny pepper-colored insects
:crawling over the surface.  This not only increases the ANIM size but it is
:unpleasant to the eye and also shows up in any reflective surface which
:contains an image of the object.  If BUMP mapping is NOT ROUGHNESS, please
:enlighten me.
:
:Scott
:[e-mail]

I did an animation with roughness set and I didn't have a problem with any
type of "crawling" of the roughness texture.  I wonder what is causing your
roughness problems.  Also, bump mapping isn't roughness.  I would liken
roughness more to fractal noise than bump mapping.  Imagine's bump mapping
is called Disturb. (Why Impulse continues to make up thier own terms and
rules for 3d is beyond me!)

-- Bob

InterNet: [e-mail]            | Raven Enterprises
    UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!bobl           | 25 Raven Avenue
  BitNet: bobl%bobsbox.rent.com@pucc           | Piscataway, NJ 08854
  Home #: 908/560-7353                   | 908/271-8878


##

Subject: Re: Bump Mapping
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 91 06:33:46 PST
From: [e-mail]

> Mark Thompson writes...
>>>
>>>The additional polygon detail required
>>>by altitude mapping is totally unnecessary when bump mapping will give the
>>>same visual result (minus the pits in the silohette which aren't noticeable
>>>anyway).

"Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]> writes:
>> Isn't BUMP mapping accomplished by using the ROUGHNESS attribute?

Udo Schuermann writes:
>It appears that there is some confusion about Bump mapping and Altitude
>mapping.  Let's see if this clears it up:
>    Imagine's "Altitude Map" *IS* bump mapping.  It involves using
>an IFF picture to specify at which locations the surface normals are
>altered.  This does not create an actual pitted surface, or actual 3D
>alterations, but it does create a good illusion of these.  It works
>best on very small alterations, such as the pits in an orange peel.
>Don't expect good results with it, trying "stamp" your big initials
>into an object, and don't even try to grow "spikes" out of the object
>using this technique.
>
>As Altitude Maps (Bump Maps) use your own IFF creations, there is none
>of the uncontrolled randomness that you get with Roughness.  They do
>not require any "additional polygon detail," either.
>
> ._.  Udo Schuermann        And now for something completely different:
> ( )  [e-mail]    An Iraqi dictator without his underpants.

He is exactly right. I would just like to add that what the original
poster is describing is called "displacement mapping". All bump mapping,
no matter what system you are on (Amiga or Silicon Graphics) is only
the -appearance- of bumps on a surface. There is something new, that
only the very high end systems have at this point, called "displacement
mapping". This takes the same signals as bump mapping to do it's work.
i.e. you are mapping an image onto a surface and it knows what is high
or low by the luminance values of the image. The difference is that with
displacement mapping the image you are mapping literally is pulled out and
pushed into the surface of the object. If you are mapping a rose onto
an object (this is one I have seen done), you can turn the object side-
ways and see the various hills and valleys of the rose. With bump mapping,
if you turn the object sideways you still see a smooth surface, even
though from the front it "appears" to have depth.

=======================================================================
Sean Schur                        USENET: [e-mail]
Assistant Director Amiga/Media Lab        Compuserve: 70731,1102
Character Animation Department            Plink: OSS259
California Institute of the Arts
=======================================================================

##

Subject: Brush Wrapping Unsatisfactory Results
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 91 10:34:24 PST
From: [e-mail]

The students in my Imagine class wanted to see examples of each kind
of brush wrapping (x flat-z flat, x wrap-z flat, etc). So, since
there are 4 combinations, I made 4 spheres and wrapped a simple black
and white grid pattern (which I made in DPaint) onto each sphere,
choosing a different combination of x/z wrapping for each one.
I put the 4 spheres in a single scene and rendered. Yuck.

The results I got were unexpected and as far as I'm concerned incorrect.
It is kind of hard to describe the results without being able to
see what it did, but I'll try. Maybe I can upload images to a
site so people can look at them. But it'll only take you 5 minutes
to repeat the experiment yourself.

For the scene I simply placed the 4 spheres with the camera and a light
directly in front of them, so I could see all at once. The first render
was really strange. The (flat x, flat z) sphere was the only one that
came out as expected. The grid pattern was simply pasted on the front.
The (flat x, wrap z) and (wrap x, flat z) spheres were completely
white (I didn't give the spheres any other attributes except for the
brush map), and the last (wrap x, wrap z) sphere was almost completely
white except for a hint of a black line just peeking over the upper
right edge of the sphere. I should say here that I oriented the
brush axis for all the spheres as follows:

                 |    -
    FRONT VIEW         |(   )    Sphere
                 |    -
               axis  +-----

                 |    -
    TOP VIEW         |(   )    Sphere
                 |    -
               axis  +-----

So the axis is in the lower left hand corner and extends the entire length
of the sphere.

I figured that the brush should be on all the spheres somewhere, even if
they weren't visible from the front. So I made an anim with all the
spheres spinning (on the Z axis) 360 degrees. Strange. They all had
the brush, in weird positions.

Again (flat x, flat z) was as expected, it was flatly pasted on the front
and back, on the sides the grid came together to make rings, but covered
the entire sphrere.
The (flat x, wrap z) was pasted almost directly on the back of the sphere,
in the center but only covered a small portion, kind of like a little skull
cap, it did look like it was wrapped in the z (elongated), but why was it
only on this small portion of the sphere?
The (wrap x, flat z) looked similar to the previous one, however it was
placed on the back, but halfway between the center and top (as if someone
were wearing a beret and tipped it to the side of his head.
The (wrap x, wrap z) was directly on top, again only covering a small
portion (about 1/8 of the sphere surface) and elongated along both axises(?).

Anyone have any ideas on this? I had only used flat x, flat z before, and it
worked fine. But the others are really strange. I also took the same
brush and tried the same experiment with flat planes. There were similar
results from the front; flat x, flat z was fine; flat x, wrap z and
wrap x, flat z were white; and on wrap x, wrap z the upper righthand
corner was black.  I didn't try spinning these yet.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

=======================================================================
Sean Schur                        USENET: [e-mail]
Assistant Director Amiga/Media Lab        Compuserve: 70731,1102
Character Animation Department            Plink: OSS259
California Institute of the Arts
=======================================================================


##

Subject: Re: Brush Wrapping Unsatisfactory Results
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 91 14:40:01 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdmin)

:For the scene I simply placed the 4 spheres with the camera and a light
:directly in front of them, so I could see all at once. The first render
:was really strange. The (flat x, flat z) sphere was the only one that
:came out as expected. The grid pattern was simply pasted on the front.
:The (flat x, wrap z) and (wrap x, flat z) spheres were completely
:white (I didn't give the spheres any other attributes except for the
:brush map), and the last (wrap x, wrap z) sphere was almost completely
:white except for a hint of a black line just peeking over the upper
:right edge of the sphere. I should say here that I oriented the
:brush axis for all the spheres as follows:
:
:                 |    -
:    FRONT VIEW         |(   )     Sphere
:                 |    -
:               axis  +-----
:
:                 |    -
:    TOP VIEW         |(   )     Sphere
:                 |    -
:               axis  +-----
:
:So the axis is in the lower left hand corner and extends the entire length
:of the sphere.

 From what I was told by the guys at Impulse, you have to make the y axis
(depth) only 1 or 2 so the brush is flat.  They say that having the y axis
too large is like trying to wrap a brick on a ball.


    FRONT VIEW        |  -
                |(   )    Sphere
                |  -
               axis +-----

    TOP VIEW           -
                 (   )    Sphere
                |  -
               axis +-----

I have yet to figure out brush wrapping and placement and I only wish that
the Surface Master went into brush mapping as well as attributes and
textures.

:Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Sorry, the only help I can offer is the above.    Maybe someone has a text
on brush mapping/wrapping they would like to post...

-- Bob

InterNet: [e-mail]            | Raven Enterprises
    UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!bobl           | 25 Raven Avenue
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  Home #: 908/560-7353                   | 908/271-8878


##

Subject: Re:  Brush Wrapping Unsatisfactory Results
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 91 18:20:43 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

    While I do NOT profess to be an expert on brush wrapping, let me
tell you what I can from 1) experience and 2) and article by Leo Schwab
in an old issue of .info (I'll look up the issue and page number if anyone
wants, but I THINK that it is the first or second PURELY AMIGA issue).

The axis placement for Flat X, Flat Z is CORRECT.  However, the axis placement
you used for the other three is what is causing the problem.  Think of it
like this.  Imagine (no pun intended ;^) a soda can which is cylindrically
symmetric about the Z axis (standing upright in the FRONT view of Imagine).
You want to wrap a Label about it.  To do this you want to take advantage of
the cylindrical symmetry.  Below I will also draw spheres for comparison with
the original posted question.

CAN: Flat X, Wrap Z
       Z
     --|--
    |  |  |
    |  |  |  Front View
    |  |  |
    |  |  |
    |  |  |
    ---|---
       -----X



           Y
           |
           -
         ( |_)__X    Top View
           -

CAN: Wrap X, Flat Z (Note: not appropriate for putting a label on a can):


       Z
       | -----
       ||     |
       ||     |  Front View
       |________X
    |     |
    |     |
    |     |
    -------




         Y
         |
         |  -
         |(---)-X    Top View
            -

For spheres it is basically the same:

SPHERE:  Flat X, Wrap Z:


          Z
              |
          -
        ( | )
          _
          +-----X


           Y
           |
           -
         ( |_)__X
           -

I'll leave out Wrap Z, Flat X for spheres.  PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING.  Some
of the above diagrams are misleading because of limitations in ASCII graphics
representations.  One, the Bottom of the Z axis in the FRONT view of both
examples of Flat X, Wrap Z should be JUST below the object's lower extent (Z).
Secondly, the Top of the Z axis in these two views should be JUST above
the top if the object's upper extent (Z).  The X axis in these two examples
should extend JUST beyond the outer X dimension of the object (although
I've heard differing opinions on this point).  FINALLY, as you may have seen
here before, the Y-axis dimension (see TOP View) in Imagine HAS an effect
on the wrapping process (apparently not true in Turbo Silver).  Set the Y
axis length to 1-2 units just to be safe.

Definitely Check out Leo's article.  It IS for Turbo Silver, but the images
he shows are FANTASTIC as conceptual aids for understanding what these wrapping
modes do.  I reproduced all of the images in both TS and Imagine.

As for Wrap X, Wrap Z, I do NOT know why this was included in the software,
as I have found NO use for it.  Leo was just as baffled.  Any comments???


Hope this helps.  Let me know if you need the .INFO issue number.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]